wow

[pockets]

There is so much more out there than I realised, sria,aol,rc,oto etc. I have been looking at some of these and thinking they may be worth looking into a bit more. I knew of the usual suspects and joined Mark this year and was not really looking for anything else until I have been through the chair in Craft which is a few years away yet but I have to admit my I'm looking at things differently now.

pockets

[eric384]

There's no indication in your intro about your experience, but just remember you are on a journey, not in a race. you will probably find that those who are in many orders and, particularly, the more obscure, have taken many years to get there.

Anyway, enjoy!

[pockets]

Eric,
I was initiated 2 years ago, raised 18 months ago and am JD in my lodge. I must admit when I first came in I had no idea how things would go and am still surprised at the way things are going. I seem to have got so much more from Masonry than I thought it had to offer. I take on board your comment about it not being a race but there is so much to learn and not enough time...lol

pockets

[Trouillogan]

Indeed, pockets, there is much to discover - particularly in yourself. Each of us is on a different journey. In my case it was twenty years almost to the day between initiation into the Craft and exaltation into the HRA, then another fifteen years before advancement into Mark and so on at my own pace into a further ten. Some join HRA and/or Mark in months but I'm glad I waited.

What I have found in some of those who join lots of orders in quick succession, is that often they have not really studied the Craft in any great depth. Superficial knowledge appears to have led them to miss whatever it is they were looking for. So they move on, thinking there's little there for them. I stress, this only applies to some. A firm foundation, however, is absolutely essential for understanding the other orders which you may join later. Obviously there are many who see immediately what they want in particular orders beyond the Craft - and that is probably correct for them.

In any case, enjoy your journey; there are surprising avenues of exploration for you ahead.

[pockets]

I joined Mark as it was recommended as a compliment to the craft and am thoroughly enjoying it, I want to put most of my time and effort into the craft as there is so much to learn.

pockets

[Saracen1970]

I share your enthusiasm Brother Pockets, just remember to enjoy the experiences and to take things at your own pace.

[Janner]

Pockets

A couple of the orders you mentioned are not masonic but there is an overlap in some of the subjects they cover. No doubt you are aware that SRIA requires that you are a MM and have a belief in the trinitarian faith. That said it is not just another masonic order.

From your list I assume that it is more the esoteric side of masonry that interest you. In which case I would say if you have the time and it is not to the detriment of family , etc then go for it. In which case SRIA may well be the next step, it is not mainstream and a lot of regular masons are not even aware of it.

Every one has their own journey and in masonry and what suits one of us may not necessarily suit another.

[pockets]

Janner,

Thanks for your advice, the orders I listed were just a few I had seen mentioned here and have had a little look at and some aspects really appeal.
The reality though is I've only been in the Craft for 2 years and at the moment am JD so things are moving pretty fast so I am having to put a fair bit off effort into learning ritual without the benefit of being able to sit and watch it from the side lines for a couple of years first. It's not a pressure though as I find enjoyable but it does take time. There is also a lot more than just ritual to learn so I'm not sure I would be able to do much else justice at the moment.
I must admit though and it is a shock to me but I do feel drawn to the esoteric side of things. A couple of years ago just before I came into the Craft I read a comment someone had written about Masonry that didn't make a lot of sense at the time and it was "Masonry filled a hole in my life that I didn't realise was there". It seemed an odd comment at the time but not now.

pockets

[Trouillogan]

Pockets, as JD of your Craft Lodge, may I ask whether you know why Lodges have Deacons? Did they always? Why you carry a staff? The signification of the jewel on the collar and emblem on the staff? Was it always that same jewel and emblem? Why there are two Deacons? Are you able to give reasons for crossing the Deacons' staves at certain times? Were the Deacons ever entrusted with the columns associated with the Wardens?

I would suggest that when you have answers to these questions and others, you may be ready to move forward but that is your decision and yours alone. The same process applies equally to each and every office in this and every other order.

I have found all too often that scant thought is given to what lies behind what we do in our Lodges, Chapters etc. and that can only result in an almost blind following of ritual in a meaningless way and an unqualified desire to leap into the unknown, trying to complete a jigsaw puzzle but having passed by or ignored some essential pieces in the rush.

Inscribed by the owner, on the inside cover of Preston's Syllabus, I found the following wise words:

Blank the stare of Symbol and of Sign,
Unless th'internal import thro' them shine.

Take care, Brother Pockets, take care.

[pockets]

Trouillogan,

Very valid points and that's why I said in the above post I have more to learn than just the ritual. I don't just want to learn what to do I also want to learn why I do it. The Craft has more than enough for me to learn and that is my priority.

Yours

S&F

pockets

[kudos100]

hi 7yrs in jw I would deff say don't be in a rush. try and find an experienced brother or brothers who will and are able to help answer your ?s. but as I see it a large part of freemasonry is to find your own answers .and above all if you have chosen to take office u have duty to fulfil in your craft lodge and a big part of that is to help the brothers following you .and you my find this a hard task if your focus is els where just enjoy craft and don't be rushed . all the best

[russellholland]

>There is so much more out there than I realised, sria,aol,rc,oto etc

With the reported loss of the genuine secrets, Masonry was at risk of losing its way. For example, how could brethren not in possession of the genuine secrets have been allowed to edit ritual?

I would suggest that cultivation of inner experience is required in Masonry. In the absence of inner experience there is a tendency to endless speculation and less useful activity.

As an aside, I have read an number of biographical accounts of and from OTO members. The accounts were all tragic!

[Unforgiven]

Hello All,

(What a subject to put my first post on - the tentative subject of Masonic Knowledge)

It seems dismissive, possibly too liberal, to say that I think many comments are right, even though, at first glance they may appear contradictory.

We all acknowledge that different people come to Freemasonry for different reasons. We also acknowledge they also stay for different reasons, finding different aspects of Freemasonry to be rewarding. Often we accidently in discussions run the risk of speaking in terms that we think each person has a singular motivation, while equally from our own experiences we acknowledge that our passion and interest in Freemasonry is a collection of things. We don't all share the same collection, but rarely is it one concept that keeps us coming back to more. For some it is the gathering, some the company, some it is the history and some the mystery.

The last two, in my humble opinion, are often mistaken for each other, and often difficult to tell apart. The historical account of why we do things, not always defines the 'meaning' of why we do things. For example the historical act of crossing staffs could relate to a replication of say forming a roof (the final protective part of a structure) but the mystery is what we take this imagery to mean - and the sensative world of Esoteric discussion begins. At times I feel it is hard for us to define in discussion our interests and values when it comes to these subjects. Partly because we know they can be sensative issues, but also because they are so entwined. Unfortunately, when it comes to the esoteric, I respectively leave that to person choice. My mind can appreciate the historic, but the Esoteric is a little to vague for me. I guess that is why I prefered Mathematics to English Lit at school.

So for me, if advice was sought, I would recommend to try and define for yourself what Freemasonry is to you, what worth you find in it. We all enjoy and value the Gathering and Social aspect, but if you are seeking to actually learn more, then try and define in yourself what you are looking for. If you know that then I am sure a Brother will be there to guide you on that path.

I agree it is almost overwhelming to see the many directions Masonic Orders can take an individual. And I agree it is not a race, but I would differ in my approach to the opportunities that stand before you. If you have the time and its causes no detriment to your life or those dependent to you, I would embrace all you can. It could allow you to see an otherview of what Freemasonry has to offer. Then you can reflect on what you see and what direction you then wish to focus on. My thoughts are only an alternative. Its what I did and I have no regrets for my actions.

If purpose and meaning is a concept for you, and you are looking are attracted to the side Orders of the Craft, I would also humbly suggest you look at the actual history of the founding of those orders. Freemasonry is a historic social society, as such we cannot deny that social trends have influenced its direction, some side orders do appear to be reflections of the times of their establishment.

(Psst - the lucky thing about English Freemasonry is that technically we onlt have EA to HRA - so not a bad place to focus on)

[Unforgiven]

Oh dear - didn't realise I wrote an essay. Forgot the first rule of Masonic speech - keep it short ! Sorry All!

[Susurration]

Interesting viewpoint Unforgiven - "embrace all you can" - particularly from a UGLE Mason. The usual stance, regularly repeated here on LRUK, is towards more time, more waiting. I've always been of the opinion that great skelps of time between Degrees (Craft Degrees and in joining the other Orders) is a limiting factor for the enquiring mind.

The GLoS is looking to extend the time between Degrees from a minumum of two weeks to a minimum of four. It'll happen quite soon as it's supported by the central belt Lodges and that's where decisions are made in Scottish Masonry. It follows the recent introduction by Grand Chapter of the rule of having to wait a year from being made a MM to joining a Royal Arch Chapter. Yes, there's a boatload of badge-hunters out there but there always have been and always will be: waiting for arbitrary amounts of time won't stop that.

So, for what it's worth, I agree entirely - embrace all you can, learn from the experiences.

[MrBenn]

The wait of a year is an interesting development, under UGLE it is still 4 weeks.

Speaking for myself, I find that there is much to discover in the individual degrees if sufficient time & attention is given to them, which is why I counsel on taking your time

[Peter Moir]

The new rule of one year between MM and RA was brought in after GLof S made a request to Supreme Grand Chapter. This was an attempt to retain new craft members to their lodges instead of going into RA, RSM and RAM as soon as they were raised.

[Eckywan]

Welcome Bro Unforgiven
and well done on so much involvement so quickly in Lodgeroom
Can I ask.... as there seems to be a void in your work so far..... How much visiting have you done??
Its the way we learn from others in this country and is the basis of so much.....
Look at other lodges JD and see if you can spot differences and then query why and appreciate their reasons.

Ive had the pleasure of visiting a lot at home and abroad and even in England!
One thing I saw in France that I like is that each candidate waits a year inbetween each degree at least
BUT from start, as applicant, after enquiry,and even before 1st degree, is expected to attend all meetings and assist in kitchen or bar during degree
and enjoy harmony / meal etc afterwards
That includes if Lodge is visiting as deputation , even going abroad,potentially finding on arrival that you are not qualified to enter

Im from a lodge with marine connection whose history includes the opposite, with some brother bringing his ships crew to join and have even gone on to be passed and raised on same night. Not allowed anymore of course. What does continue but hasnt been needed for some time is to amend degrees/ meetinngs to facilitate naval crew, and also serving military who are just back home or just about to leave on posting.

I'll be looking out for any discussion at Grand Lod ge next week specially from Aberdeenshire where CIRWG of E resides

Fraternally as always

eckywan

[Unforgiven]

Thank you Brethren for not throwing me to wolves for my comments, I hope I gave respect to simply offering at alternative view point.

Although I feel I should clarify a point as this discussion has moved on. I do concur with the principle of formally delaying the opportunity of joining particular orders, such as waiting at least a year for the exhaltation to the HRA. As I personally feel that the HRA is the true completion of the Craft ceremonies and meaning, and the forced delay enhances the significance of this ritual. Which, indeed, means that my opinion is not based on the time being a tool for an individual to reflect of the previous ceremonies, but to encourage a feeling of desire, meaning and appriecation for the HRA - which in England is seen as the completion of the Craft.

Yet, again as I am simply a product of the UGLE, this opinion could be because of how English Freemasonry is structured and promoted, with the UGLE only acknowledging the four ceremonies of EA, FC, MM and HRA. All other Masonic Orders are managed by the Grand Lodge of Mark Masons. It is these Orders that I would, humbly, encourage a Brother to investigate at a speed and desire suitable for them.

My reasoning is only due to by opinion of time itself. A ruthless preditor. As our own ceremonies describe, we mostly do not know when our time will end. So live life to the full and embrace what you admire and love. I agree entirely that it takes time to really appreciate the beautiful rhetoric and meaning of our ceremonies, but if you are going to be a life long Mason, then you are assured you are going to be seeing alot of the same ritual repeated every year for as long as you can make it to your Temple. So why not spread your mind to appreciate more whilst time and health allows. The beauty of Freemasonry is eternal, to my opinion, even if you think you have learnt it all, tomorrow you will see more. If time is to be taken to appreciate what you are experiencing, then sitting watching and reflecting on the ceremonies presented to you is not a bad time to learn about your craft. Please do not discourage any Brother from learning the thoughts of another, whether that is attending a lecture or reading a book. But I read a nice quote somewhere 'Freemasonry : Its not about me changing them, it's about me changing me', that sounds like a nice private journey - but with friends.

Oh dear, I have go on again haven't I. Sorry.

[Unforgiven]

Dear Eckywan,

Yes, I have some gaps in my experiences - a shame, hence my feelings towards the passage of time.

As for visiting, oh I so enjoyed it, and found it one of the most reassuring things about being a Brother. Although, yes, it is an amazing and insightful tool for learning, it is also the personifcation of the gifts of being a Mason, that unquestioning warm welcome (even when my mind went blank when attempting to prove myself through the five points) that ensures a Brother that you really are a member of something very special. I have had a great pleasure visiting, especially in America, but never in France - a fascinating concept, but under the UGLE I would have had to be cautious as not all is well between the bigwigs of the French and English premier Grand Lodges (- plus my French is awful).