Rank in Freemasonry

[Chestnut]

Bro Richard, it may be that each Province has its own way. I see that Herefordshire, which you are a member has 14 Lodges. My Province has over 300. It must therefore be easier for the PGM and APGM in Herefordshre it know most people and who is at what milestone.

For us the form merely serves as a nudge to the PGM of a brhers ability. It does not guarantee any honour at all.

[admin]

It also saves a lot of money in cases and regalia.

How dare you say such a thing,

you should all spend as much money as possible and go directly to Lodgeroom store, do not pass go. do not collect anything just spend.

[Kyle]

I confess, I don't know what happens in my Province, but after 4 years, including a year as Assistant Secretary, I have never heard of nor seen such a form and have never heard anyone discussing them. I believe that we have a similar set-up as Wayne describes. My guess would be that different Provinces work in different ways.

The more I consider an application-based system the more I dislike it.

Hi Richard,

I would suggest that it would not be unusual for a Freemason of four years to not have had sight of the process or any such recommendation forms, even as Asst Sec, but that would depend upon that role in the individual Lodge. I have never seen such a form for my mother Lodge for example where I am a PM but have been involved with discussions regarding honours at GP Committee meetings. As Secretary of another Lodge however I have worked with the PMs and nominees on three such forms so far.

I would also think that a very different system will be in place in the Province of Herefordshire with 14 Lodges compared to London with some 1,500 Lodges. I imagine the ProvGM and his Deputy in Herefordshire would probably between them know almost all the members in the Province and it would be fairly easy for them to pick out those suitable for honours. In London however the majority of members will incredibly rarely meet the MetGM, his Deputy or Assistants (each AsstMetGM having ~500 Lodges under their auspices). Both of course being extreme examples at different ends of the spectrum.

Please note the difference between application and recommendation; it is subtle but there. To my mind 'application' infers asking for something which would be quite incorrect. However Lodges recommending a Brother for honours due to his service, deportment etc. certainly in London is the only way it could possibly work. This is why though sometimes Lodges chose not to tell those who are put up for honours, because if the Provincial or Metropolitan office doesn't agree that that person is worthy then that person could understandably become disappointed.

K

[Richard]

I would also think that a very different system will be in place in the Province of Herefordshire with 14 Lodges compared to London with some 1,500 Lodges. I imagine the ProvGM and his Deputy in Herefordshire would probably between them know almost all the members in the Province and it would be fairly easy for them to pick out those suitable for honours. In London however the majority of members will incredibly rarely meet the MetGM, his Deputy or Assistants (each AsstMetGM having ~500 Lodges under their auspices). Both of course being extreme examples at different ends of the spectrum.

K

Kyle (and Chestnut),

Thanks for the clarification - sometimes the difference in scale is a little over-whelming, yes. We usually see the PGM at least once, if not twice a year, and the DPGM drops in a couple of times as well. We don't have any APGMs! Each AsstMetGM has ~500 lodges, I think we only have ~700 members!

I suppose larger provinces (incl. London) must do things a different way as the PGM etc cannot possibly visit all the lodges. And with 14 lodges and (if memory serves) 19 active provincial officers, we nearly always have one in Lodge.

To my mind though, I'm happy with the system. It seems to work for us here!

R

[Janner]

Not sure if number of lodges should really be relevant, perhaps membership should be the real guide. The PGM can appoint to appoint PGL officers based on number of lodges. In Devon we have fewer lodges but they are very well attended. Perhaps actual membership should be the guide?

[Trouillogan]

I know that there are different methods in different Provinces and that is only right in my view - I dislike stultifying standardisations! Speaking as a Lodge secretary, once a year I receive a form from the provincial office asking for details of the brother who was Master seven years previously and nine years previously; the former normally for a first appointment and the latter for a promotion. The questions asked by province cover the degree work carried out, offices held since his mastership, community activities and his attendance record at Lodge, GPC and LoI meetings. In addition there is a request for any further information that could be relevant and a request for similar details of any other brother whose outstanding services in or out of Lodge might merit an appointment or promotion. This province have only this information on which to rely, as we do not have regular visiting grand officers or group representatives as in some other provinces.

As to the allocation of these different 'ranks', the UGLE B of C sets out (by rules 68 to 70) how many of each acting ranks a province can have, depending on the number of brethren in the province. This used to be according to the number of Lodges but was changed a few years ago to the present scheme, to avoid the burgeoning numbers of small Lodges, in part encouraged (or not discouraged!) by the provinces.

My personal view is that the granularity of 33 different grades or 'ranks' seems quite ridiculous when compared with the three (including metropolitan) for London! It is also, I believe, fuel for dissention amongst those to whom such things seem important and for that reason contrary to the spirit of Freemasonry.

[traveller]

I

But if you dont have the honour system what would you replace it with.

You have to ask the question ?
Is a Master Mason qualified by the fact that he has paid his fees or is it the time and energy put in over a long period of time. ?

So before you criticise the appointment system , first you have to ask if you want one, if not what would the general position be without it ?

There is no Rank in Freemasonry higher than the 3rd degree. See I told you I was good with lectures.

My Brother,

At the risk of sounding radical and/or controversial (which isn't my intention)

I actually don't see why the entire system can't be abolished and I fail to understand why it needs to be replaced with anything.

I appreciate that those in active office should have some kind of rank whilst they're active but I can't see why they shouldn't lose the rank and the different regalia when they cease being active.

As you say yourself, there is no rank in Freemasonry higher than the 3rd degree, so why not simply display the fact that we're all equal by having everyone wear their MM or PM aprons and not have needless (inactive) rank of any kind.

I personally believe that the entire system does nothing except divide the lodge, cause bad feeling and encourage snobbery. If we're all brothers together and all equal, I believe that needs to be displayed in the regalia etc.

[admin]

If the majority want the system abolished, I would have no problem with that.

If the majority like it as it is, I would have no problem with that.

When I signed up I agreed to do just that, abide by the will of the majority.

[traveller]

Bro Bill,

Forgive me if I sounded like I was campaigning, that wasn't my intention. I guess I was just trying to say that I can't really get my head around the whole thing and don't really understand why so many people take it all so seriously.

[Chestnut]

Its just an interesting distraction, thats all.

Whilst I have my opinions which I have aired, the final say is as Bill states in his post as laid down in the Charge after Initiation.

[admin]

Bro Bill,

Forgive me if I sounded like I was campaigning, that wasn't my intention. I guess I was just trying to say that I can't really get my head around the whole thing and don't really understand why so many people take it all so seriously.

You have every right to say whatever you wish.

Otherwise I spend a lot of time creating these forum just so people can read what I have to say.

While this is always very beneficial, it gets boring after the first 12 years.

[PhillR]

Wow - a long thread on this topic! Ok, omo of course, but surely the rising numbers of Dark Blue's in Lodge is a sign that that particular Lodge is in decline? If there is only one Light Blue there is something very wrong with the Dark Blues' growth of the Lodge!

I agree to having an 'honour' system to visually reflect a Brothers' dedication; and should I ever be 'offered' such I would gladly accept the accolade! Remember too, it's not cheap either - apron sash ect etc! And, lets not forget that for anyone to have 'earned' an honour means plenty of quids ( or Rands in our case ) into the Charity collections, Festive Boards, Subs, etc, etc - oh and lets not forget the fuel costs and time!

My regard for the 'grey beards' is very high, and personally, I've always found them very open, helpful and 'Brotherly'!

But there again, I live in the Cape (Hermanus) - not White River - people down here are generaly a lot friendlier! lol :)
Our websites are worth a look.. http://www.hermanus7015.co.za - and - http://www.freemasonrycape.net
Btw, I've changed my signature below - it seems many Forumites like showing their achievements - just a bit of fun, I'll change it back in few days.....S&F,

[Kyle]

Btw, I've changed my signature below - it seems many Forumites like showing their achievements - just a bit of fun, I'll change it back in few days.....S&F,

Sorry but just to be pedantic - you are a Third Principal and a Principal Sojourner rather than 'Principle'. Small difference in spelling, big difference in meaning.

[PhillR]

Many thanks for the correction Kyle - we strive to learn!
S&F

[TWells]

That's some CV there Bro. Phill!
Am I reading correctly? You are W.M. of THREE Lodges AND hold office in TWO Chapter's, plus others? Or do you mean P.M., et al?

[bboy]

I've just picked up this thread again. You guys South of the Reo Tweed seem to give yourselves no end of headaches!

It's probably been mentioned elsewhere on this thread that in Scotland you only wear PGL regalia when attending something as PGL, end of story. I've been at Lodge meetings when the current PGM IPPGM and PPGM have all been in attedance, but only wore their lodge regalia, as a Past Masters. Even Lord Elgin, Past Most Worshipful Grand Master Mason, probably the most famous (living) Freemason in the World, wear's his PM's apron when out on normal lodge business.

Honorary Grand 'Rankers' get to wear a Thistle green ribbon with a jewel to show they have been rewarded for services to the craft but don't get presented because of it. If they get presented at all it's because they are PM's.

[PhillR]

[quote="Pidge"]That's some CV there Bro. Phill!
Am I reading correctly? You are W.M. of THREE Lodges AND hold office in TWO Chapter's, plus others? Or do you mean P.M., et al?[/quote]

WYSIWYG Bro Pidge - Current 'Master' in 3 Lodges ( the two Mark ones are under dispensation from MarkDGM ) - not "PM" at all yet - this is first time for all of em...but am in my 2nd year of Chair in the Craft (Hermanus 7015)
http://www.freemasonrycape.net

[mgreene1036]

I must say that all biased aside i prefer the Scottish way of dong things. Provincial Grand Lodge runs just the same as a Lodge and has a progressive line, normally whilst you are RWM or a PM you can get proposed to Provincial and join as a Steward, you then work your way up through the offices. This can take 20 years however with drop outs etc normally takes around 10 to become Provincial Grand Senior Warden. If you do not attend regularly for visitations or communications you can lose your place in office.

Hon Ranls are still available but far less than in England.

S&F

Martyn

[zambuk]

Bboy,
That's the way we do it here, too. We have no hassles or whinging in this respect.

From an outsider's perspective, while I cannot in fairness comment on the method of nominating and conferring Grand Honours on a Brother over there in the Old Dart, wouldn't it be a heck of a lot easier for UGLE et al to simply declare that the regular sky blues be the regalia worn in Lodges, in an effort to stop (or at least reduce) the angst and infighting? Then, although the Ranks might differ, everyone at least will be dressed the same

Surely it would only need an edict or something similar from the Grand Master .

IMHO these days, Freemasonry prides itself on being a classless society, but the glaringly obvious divisions created by the two groups with different colours and styles of Regalia at the same meeting seems to form a "Haves" and "Have Nots) situation with potentially destructive results.

Just a question or three..

Are the holders of a Grand rank FORCED to wear their Garter Blues at their regular Lodge Meetings, or do they have the option?

What happens if they just cannot afford the rather high cost of the Regalia? From the prices that I have seen on the web sites of many Regalia makers over there, a suite of G/L Regalia ain't cheap. The same applies over here too, where we don't get much change out of $a2,500 for a basic set.

If they chose not to wear their Garter Blues, would the Tyler have the right or indeed an obligation to refuse them entry because the weren't "properly clothed"?

It would seem that UGLE has made a rod for its own back by not stipulating that only sky blues be worn as normal regalia in Craft Lodges.

And one last question...do you have the same situation regarding regalia wearing in RA Chapters?

Cheers

zambuk

[Seeking-Light]

Hi All I have to agree with bboy i have read this thread through and guess that he is right .The way ugle hand these out almost trivialises the whole award.If you see a brother north of the Rio Tweed wearing a Hon G L jewel then he will have done something credible to deserve this ,served his lodge in an exemplary fashion for 20 or 30 years not just attended most musters after he came out the chair.Also bear in mind that a good majority of Scottish lodges will meet three times a month ,two regular meetings and a general committee for eight months of the year.Maybe a closer look at Scotlands more meek and modest system might be worthwhile.One other thing it might be down to is that in my limited experience of english masonry almost all lodges wear the same light blue kit up here you can have twenty different regalias in the room including dark blue maybe you should allow some more colour into your lodges ..

Cheers Seeking Light

Ps there are some lovely tartan regalias or would that be a step to far!