Rank in Freemasonry

[traveller]

I guess that when I stop to think about it, what exactly does Provincial rank achieve?

I can see a lot of negatives such as it might intimidate new members when they see all the old greybeards in different regalia and I can see that some of those old greybeards might think that because they've been members for a longer period than some others or wear a different apron to others might think themselves superior in some way, when in actual fact, they are no more important than any other member........ but frankly, I don't think I can see any positives at all.

As I see it, members should contribute whatever they contribute for the love of Freemasonry not for any hope of being given letters after their name and the right to wear a different apron.

Maybe the whole concept should be scrapped except for additional rank when someone has active rank and when that ceases, they should simply go back to being a PM or MM. It'd certainly stop one regular reason for dissent within a lodge.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'd be interested to hear if others think I'm being radical or reasonable with that idea?

[Richard]

I guess that when I stop to think about it, what exactly does Provincial rank achieve?

I can see a lot of negatives such as it might intimidate new members when they see all the old greybeards in different regalia and I can see that some of those old greybeards might think that because they've been members for a longer period than some others or wear a different apron to others might think themselves superior in some way, when in actual fact, they are no more important than any other member........ but frankly, I don't think I can see any positives at all.

As I see it, members should contribute whatever they contribute for the love of Freemasonry not for any hope of being given letters after their name and the right to wear a different apron.

Maybe the whole concept should be scrapped except for additional rank when someone has active rank and when that ceases, they should simply go back to being a PM or MM. It'd certainly stop one regular reason for dissent within a lodge.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'd be interested to hear if others think I'm being radical or reasonable with that idea?

You seem to be making an assumption here that "old greybeards" might think themselves superior in some way. To be honest, in my experience, I have found every older mason I know to be welcoming and friendly. Things might be different where you are, but I would contend that if brethren who have been in the Craft longer than others consider themselves superior then that is a failing of those brothers rather than the Provincial honours system.

I don't think that it is the Honours system to blame, rather how it is perceived and applied. I was always told that the most important honour in freemasonry was 'brother'.

Anyway, as a slight tangent to all this, I am giving the speech to Provincial Lodge in December and I'd be interested to know if anyone here has anything positive to say about holders of Provincial rank (both past and present). It'd certainly be a change to hear something positive. :)

[traveller]

Bro Richard,

I did say some, not all...... although here in Africa I'm sorry to say that, that some would comprise a fairly high percentage of the greybeards who seem to think themselves better in some way than the newer brethren.

[Bernie]

In my opinion the vast majority of the more experienced brethren I meet, and therefore the vast majority with Provincial and Grand rank, are some of the most supportive and friendly brothers you could possibly hope to meet.

That said, I too subscribe to the thought that our rank structure could do with some serious overhaul. Many past ranks are granted for time served. You only have to listen to conversations in lodge to see some brethren ticking of the years till they are in the zone. Provincial honours clearly have a role in Masonry as a means of identifying and acknowledging those brethren who have given a lot to the craft. However, working on the basis that every brother will eventually get provincial honours does a disservice to the Craft.

Wearing a Past Master's apron and jewel should be sufficient for the majority of us. It would be for me. So, if the system was scrapped, or seriously overhauled, I for one would not think I had lost out.

[wayne cowley]

I was at a meeting of the PM lodge I am a member of last night (Hendre No 3250)

At the toast to Provicial officers present and past, out of the 150 or so of us there only 11 of us stood to toast - everyone else was dark blue

Wayne

[Chestnut]

Bro Wayne that highlights my problem with the hobours system. There are too many. I have put this before but its worth doing again. In my Province, which is close the the biggest in 1961 1 in 53 FM got a rank in that year, in 2007 1 in 33, 2009 1 in 29.

What that does not take into account is those ineligible so the real number is much lower.

Simply put the present system devalues the ranks given.

Numbers are dropping and appointments are increasing seems a strange situation.

[Janner]

... in 1961 1 in 53 FM got a rank in that year, in 2007 1 in 33, 2009 1 in 29. ...

Look on the bright side it won't be long before 1 in 1 get it. Once everyone is dark blue then no one will feel left out.

[Chestnut]

Yep I can see it now,

In the name of the GAOTU and by command of the WM I invest you with your Past Persuivant apron. It is more ancient than the Roman Eagle etc....

[Keith]

I can see little point - or honour - in a system where 'promotion' is dished out 'with the rations', which seems to be the situation here, It would be nice if someone could tell me I have a wrong impression.

[Angler89]

In my Lodge the room is full of dark blue,with only a few in MM blue.
West Lancs claims to be the biggest province but it seems they like to hand out honours.I don't understand the acting ranks etc nor do I ever want too.I love attending my Lodge and I don't care if at the festive board I have to toast the so called elite,it gives me a chance to have a good drink.

[traveller]

In my craft lodge, I'm the only member who doesn't have (past) provincial rank....... and the only reason I don't have it is because I decline it. That to me is a totally ridiculous situation.

With all due respect to my brethren here who do hold such rank. Whilst I'd never dream of criticising a brother for accepting promotion, as I see it, all provincial past rank is nothing more than an anachronism and it has absolutely no bearing on anything except snobbery and I'd be very happy to see the entire system abandoned completely.

[asabovesobelow]

Perhaps this also means that not enough members with a provincial rank are awarded the honour of grand rank. For example I would imagine that a member who has served as an active SGW of his province and continues to be active in the Craft for say the following 5 years would then receive a grand rank. As long as the number of initiations continue to decline (as it will do most likely) then the future lodge will be nearly all dark blue regalia. Although I agree the current provincial rank system really needs modifying in view of the declining number of Craft members in the future.

[admin]

I am afraid I upset a poster over at TFM yesterday on this subject.

He said I was lecturing, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeell maybe I was, but I am good at it.

My point I thought was simple, the honour system should not be taken too seriously.

I have a couple of pals who are APGM's, they do get swamped by appointment seekers, that says more about the individuals than the system.

But if you dont have the honour system what would you replace it with.

You have to ask the question ?
Is a Master Mason qualified by the fact that he has paid his fees or is it the time and energy put in over a long period of time. ?

So before you criticise the appointment system , first you have to ask if you want one, if not what would the general position be without it ?

While visiting last Month a young Mason came to me at the table and asked "Sir, which wine would you like, white or red? '. I replied by saying 'Please dont call me Sir, I am your Brother, make me happy and ask Brother, what wine...... ?'. This seemed to be acceptable.

There is no Rank in Freemasonry higher than the 3rd degree. See I told you I was good with lectures.

[Chestnut]

Hi Bill, I am afraid it was locked before I could answer so have copied it here. Hope it makes sense. With regard to being called Sir, could it nit just be the fact that the Brother did not know you and out of respect was using the title Sir as we all did in those old smokey days rather than deference to rank?

1) Do you think the method for awarding Honors is fair? Leaving aside London, the method of awards in Provinces is not transparent. Certainly a move to the London system would seem fairer. I am not aware as to how each individual Province interprets the rules, but ceratinly there will be variations.

2) Should the system be improved and formulated? Yes it should. I do think there should be some system which recognises and awards brethren based on criteria. Now under the present system lets look at it from the Provinces point of view. Each year they recieve hundreds of forms, with no means of identification other than a name and Lodge along with many details. From this the Executive has to decide who in their opinion is deserving of an honour and of what rank. Obviously APGM's are asked for input. If whilst at their Lodge visit a brother was welcoming, he would be remembered 'Oh yes Bro X he is a nice bloke' its rubber stamped. If however a brother was absent then he may fall off the radar, irrespective as to how good he is. My major problem is that year on year the ranks are awarded according to the ability of those available for honours at that time. For example, consider a Steward. Now only a set number are given, say 18. However this year may be a blinding year and really there are 20 excellent candidates all deserving. Unfortunately 2 are not given. Those two are not aware of this fact but can be aggrieved that there peers got such an honour. Now next year it may be very poor and only 10 are as good as the previous 20. But a further 8 are found of a lower quality. Now those original 2 if they are again missed off, do they not question as to perhaps their face does not fit?

3) Should the individual being considered for an award be part of the procedure? Well he is. In my experience most brethren are aware as to when they are going to be put forward. Each Lodge is advised to hold a GP and discuss their proposals. The Secretary has to complete a form in which the brothers masonic progress since leaving the chair is noted. Such questions as being a member of HRA, Installed Master Lodges and other Lodges with Offices taken are put down. Whilst this is not mandatory, it does show a brothers involvement in FM outside of this one Lodge. Additional information is sought and can be added such as other orders etc and outside activities of merit. The Brother then signs this and it is forwarded. Therefore the Brother is party to the entire process.

4) Should an individual have a right to appeal? No. I can not see what there is to appeal about other than he got X and I only got Y. Simply based on the criteria presented and those available for honours that year, the Brother concerned was awarded with Z.

Picking up on a point concerning the WM ruling his Lodge. For me he most definately does. I am appointed as DC each year by the then WM. My role with the Secretary is to assist the WM in his work for the year. It may well be that certain procedures need to be undertaken and advice to the WM is given. But I am fully conscious that I am merely an appointed Officer for the WM and he sanctions what the Lodge does. It is he who sign returns, it is with him the Warrant sits, it is he who calls the meetings. If the WM for whatever reason delegates some of his responsabilities to his Officers or defers to others then that is his choice. Lets look at it like this, the weight of those responsabilities can be heavy, by others balancing that weight out part of the load can be born until the new WM is comfortable and able to progress unhindered. Those who plan their year in advance never have a problem, those who are unprepeared are the most fragile. I hope that all the WM I have worked for have left the Chair having enjoyed their year and not hated it.

I still wear the pale blue. I am resigned to that fact. I am also acutely aware that for me I have the highest honour as the Lodge have voted for me to be their WM. Any other honour or lack of it is based on the opinion of those who do not know you. All aprons are just a more elaborate and expensive variation on the EA apron. But how many have moved away from what the Apron stands for;

.. it is intended to remind of that purity of life and actions which should at all times characterise a freemason........may its pure and spotless surface be an ever present reminder of purity of life and rectitude of conduct, a never ending arguement for nobler deeds, higher thoughts and greater achievements....

It also saves a lot of money in cases and regalia.

[Richard]

2) Should the system be improved and formulated? Yes it should. I do think there should be some system which recognises and awards brethren based on criteria. Now under the present system lets look at it from the Provinces point of view. Each year they recieve hundreds of forms, with no means of identification other than a name and Lodge along with many details.

Excuse my utter ignorance and stupidity here - but are you saying that individual Lodges send in a form to Province asking for recommendations? If so, that may well change my opinion of how honours work. I confess, I had always thought that the Provincial 'team' come to a conclusion as to the merit of an individual brother by observing their performance in Lodge and in discussion with other members of their Lodge.

This seems wrong to me - that brethren can apply for honours. In my (simple) mind they should be awarded by the PGM based on advice from other 'senior' members of the PGL - if you have to apply for honours then it will obviously lead to disappointment and frustration. I *prefer* having a completely opaque process - it stops people from ticking boxes to get a prettier apron and prevents people from badgering the PGM too much.

[Kyle]

This seems wrong to me - that brethren can apply for honours. In my (simple) mind they should be awarded by the PGM based on advice from other 'senior' members of the PGL - if you have to apply for honours then it will obviously lead to disappointment and frustration. I *prefer* having a completely opaque process - it stops people from ticking boxes to get a prettier apron and prevents people from badgering the PGM too much.

Bro. Richard,

I can't speak for the provinces but assume they are similar in this to London - an individual doesn't apply for honours, the Lodge recommends him. For example, the heading of the LGR form is -

London Grand Rank - Recommendation for Appointment made by the Worshipful Master and Past Masters of .... Lodge No. ....

The form has to be signed by the current WM, two PMs and the Sec but with the note that if the recommendation is on behalf of the Secretary then another (3rd) PM should sign it and a different correspondence address used.

The declaration at the bottom that the PMs sign is -

We, the undersigned, on behalf of the Worshipful Master and Past Masters, declare that, to the best of our knowledge and belief, the particulars contained herein are correct and that the Brother being recommended is worthy as a man and as a Mason of the honour of London Grand Rank.

We further declare that fair and impartial consideration has been given to the achievements of all eligible Past Masters of and in the Lodge for this recommendation and we are unanimous in our decision of supporting the aforementioned Brother.

It depends on Lodge custom; sometimes the nominee is aware they're being put up, othertimes they are not aware and if received the honour comes as a very nice surprise. Other times PMs will be aware that after X years out of the Chair they become eligible so will pester the Sec/WM/Committee to put in a nomination form.

HTH,

Kyle

[wayne cowley]

That's the way it works in some Provinces Kyle but not all

As far as I am aware, round here it is based on the recommendation of the GL Officer assigned to visit the lodge on behalf of the PGM who writes the recommendation - the Lodge itself has no input to the best of my knowledge

Wayne

[Chestnut]

That's the way it works in some Provinces Kyle but not all

As far as I am aware, round here it is based on the recommendation of the GL Officer assigned to visit the lodge on behalf of the PGM who writes the recommendation - the Lodge itself has no input to the best of my knowledge

Wayne

Hi Wayne is that right. My experience in the Province is the same as Kyle. The Secretary, GP and individual all have input. These recommendations for honours are then sifted by the Executive into who gets what.

A thankless task I would suspect.

[Richard]

That's the way it works in some Provinces Kyle but not all

As far as I am aware, round here it is based on the recommendation of the GL Officer assigned to visit the lodge on behalf of the PGM who writes the recommendation - the Lodge itself has no input to the best of my knowledge

Wayne

Hi Wayne is that right. My experience in the Province is the same as Kyle. The Secretary, GP and individual all have input. These recommendations for honours are then sifted by the Executive into who gets what.

A thankless task I would suspect.

I confess, I don't know what happens in my Province, but after 4 years, including a year as Assistant Secretary, I have never heard of nor seen such a form and have never heard anyone discussing them. I believe that we have a similar set-up as Wayne describes. My guess would be that different Provinces work in different ways.

The more I consider an application-based system the more I dislike it.

[admin]

chestnut:

With regard to being called Sir, could it nit just be the fact that the Brother did not know you and out of respect was using the title Sir as we all did in those old smokey days rather than deference to rank?

You take my point the wrong way, I wanted to show I thought of the new Brother as an equal and I did not like to be elevated by him. There was no problem in what I said to him between us. I kinda got the impression he was more comfortable with 'Brother'.

In Essex we have a form for appointment and another for promotion, the Lodge does not have a say in Grand Lodge appointments.