Rank in Freemasonry

[EssexMason]

......Thus the whole show (at Provincial and Grand levels) would end up being run by the badge-collectors and no-one else.
That's not good.

T & F,

Huw

May not be good, but at least they'll be happy

[Trouillogan]

On 27th June next year there's a very good paper on the subject of 'Past Grand Ranks' being delivered at Quatuor Coronati Lodge - details on the 'News' page at http://www.qccircle.org.uk. UGLE evidentially has this 'system' of appointments to Past Grand Rank where no active office has been held, as well as promotions within the past ranks. All this is quite opaque to the rest of the world. To my knowledge, the Irish Constitution (and probable the Scottish as well) only appoint to active offices. Then when that active period is over, the past office rank applies. And that's the top and bottom of it. Our plethora of Grand (and Provincial) Panjandra only really got started at the beginning of the twentieth century and, in my opinion, is now quite ridiculous. As we all know, the result has been the rise of the badge chaser. I might understand it if there were a pay grade difference but there isn't, so I don't!

[JulesTheBit]

The system's essential. How will we know important they all are if they're not wearing bloody great badges to prove it?

Yours, tongue in cheek, Jules

[jshandalla]

On 27th June next year there's a very good paper on the subject of 'Past Grand Ranks' being delivered at Quatuor Coronati Lodge - details on the 'News' page at http://www.qccircle.org.uk. UGLE evidentially has this 'system' of appointments to Past Grand Rank where no active office has been held, as well as promotions within the past ranks. All this is quite opaque to the rest of the world. To my knowledge, the Irish Constitution (and probable the Scottish as well) only appoint to active offices. Then when that active period is over, the past office rank applies. And that's the top and bottom of it. Our plethora of Grand (and Provincial) Panjandra only really got started at the beginning of the twentieth century and, in my opinion, is now quite ridiculous. As we all know, the result has been the rise of the badge chaser. I might understand it if there were a pay grade difference but there isn't, so I don't!

Very interesting point, and as a reader from Canada, the appointment of Honourary Past Grand Ranks on more than the odd rare occasion does seem unusual. I have a Past Grand Rank but served as a GL Officer for a year before being awarded the permanent rank. One will find that to be the norm is most North American Grand Lodges.

[Trouillogan]

I think it would take UGLE and its Districts and Provinces the best part of a generation to fix, were they to decide to do so, as they could hardly remove the ranks already handed out. In any case there would probably be rioting in the streets of Covent Garden!

[BigI]

If we can manage in London without the Past Provincial type ranks why can't the Provinces?

[JulesTheBit]

If we can manage in London without the Past Provincial type ranks why can't the Provinces?

Interesting question, but i think persuading provinces to switch to the LR/LGR/SLGR structure would be as difficult as scrapping it.

A suggestion made by a FC many years ago was that ranks should be awarded completely automatically. All you have to do to get one is remain a member. After 7 or 8 years all PMs have got one and you can start to scrap the system! There are some major flaws in the idea, but it is interesting.

Personally I can't see a way to put this particular genie back in the bottle.

S&F, Jules

[wayne cowley]

Interesting question, but i think persuading provinces to switch to the LR/LGR/SLGR structure would be as difficult as scrapping it.

In some quarters perhaps - but there are quite a few of us "out in the sticks" who would be quite happy to see the London system replicated in Provinces (especially after witnessing the childish tantrums of some when they don't get what they think they deserved!)

How you would get from the current system to that would be a far harder question!

Wayne

[bod]

They can dictate what colur socks one is supposed to wear so creating a blanket policy of 'dark blue' which replicates London wouldn't be too difficult, would just take a will to do it and the tenacity to get it through

Maybe someone should propose it at a QC?

[JulesTheBit]

Interesting question, but i think persuading provinces to switch to the LR/LGR/SLGR structure would be as difficult as scrapping it.

In some quarters perhaps - but there are quite a few of us "out in the sticks" who would be quite happy to see the London system replicated in Provinces (especially after witnessing the childish tantrums of some when they don't get what they think they deserved!)

How you would get from the current system to that would be a far harder question!

Wayne

Here's the only way I can think of to do that Wayne:
I held an active rank in London (MetGD) a little while ago. For "past" purposes the active Met ranks each correspond to LGR or SLGR, At the end of my active term I became simply LGR. The most senior active officers become SLGR. So, I am not PastMetGD even though I held the active rank. There are no past ranks at all in London with the sole exception of PastMetGM, and MetGM's not a London rank it's a Grand Rank.

In a province I suppose you could interpolate in the opposite direction to what London does with active ranks. The only provincial ranks would then be PGR for those who have never been WM, PSGR, and PJGR. Thus ranks above PPSGD could become PSGR, and ranks below PPsGD became PJGR etc. Does that make sense? The regalia manufacturers would make lots of money selling all those lovely new badges!

I was on some sort of duty as MetGD about twice a week during my term and it was interesting to see how many people would quite blatantly ask me how I got my rank, or could I get one for Fred etc. I really enjoyed what I did, and I must have impressed somebody because I've gone on to other things since, but I really think freemasonry would be better served if we could scrap the rank system and just have whatever active officers are required for ceremonial and administrative purposes, as they do in most other Constitutions. There are other, better ways of rewarding long or superior service than a rank structure.

Interestingly, the Provinces tend to hand out every dark blue collar they are eligible to give, and in my own Craft Province I hear some rejoicing that the new Prov. Mentor office might eventually give a few more past provincial ranks. London's been going in the opposite direction for years; if you look in the BoC you will see the calculation for how many dark blues can be awarded in a province. But in London there are over 200 LGRs each year which could be given but are not because in MetGL the awards bar is being set high. A dark blue of any kind in London is now something you can be very proud of because its demonstrably hard to get. SLGR's even harder, its become a sort of junior Grand Rank. Last year there were just over 180 SLGRs to share among 34,000 freemasons/1,400 Lodges in London.

In my opinion, if you can't scrap the past rank system, make it more meaningful. Since MetGL was formed that's already happened in London, and one of the many things I prefer about London compared to the Provinces.

S&F, Jules
An active member of 4 London Craft Lodges & 2 Provincial Craft Lodges
and other Lodges & Orders in various places
list of my ranks available on request 8-)

[Mark Master]

Interesting question, but i think persuading provinces to switch to the LR/LGR/SLGR structure would be as difficult as scrapping it.

In some quarters perhaps - but there are quite a few of us "out in the sticks" who would be quite happy to see the London system replicated in Provinces (especially after witnessing the childish tantrums of some when they don't get what they think they deserved!)

How you would get from the current system to that would be a far harder question!

Wayne

Perhaps this topic should have been titled ' What is RANK in freemasonry' posting.php?mode=quote&f=14&p=156058#

[Mike Martin]

In some quarters perhaps - but there are quite a few of us "out in the sticks" who would be quite happy to see the London system replicated in Provinces (especially after witnessing the childish tantrums of some when they don't get what they think they deserved!)

This being the main reason why I am no longer a W.Kent mason and why I have hesitated for 2 years about the idea of joining a (local) E. Kent Lodge.

[rjgs]

It's a complex issue. I understand that the system of honours in London has been designed to reward past (and future) service to the Craft (and in other Orders)? Without rewards, those Brethren who work hard for Freemasonry might not not bother and benefit the Brotherhood. However, I abhor the assumption that Brethren assume that a Brother who has been awarded an honour for merit has "greased the right palms" or "hob-nobbed with the right people"!

[JulesTheBit]

It's a complex issue. I understand that the system of honours in London has been designed to reward past (and future) service to the Craft (and in other Orders)? Without rewards, those Brethren who work hard for Freemasonry might not not bother and benefit the Brotherhood. However, I abhor the assumption that Brethren assume that a Brother who has been awarded an honour for merit has "greased the right palms" or "hob-nobbed with the right people"!

Aside from Mastership of Lodges, the best reward I ever got was my appointment as a Visiting Officer. It's a job not a rank. There's no apron badge, no lapel pins, nothing visible at all. There are ways of rewarding people without having ranks.

S&F, Jules

[BigI]

In some quarters perhaps - but there are quite a few of us "out in the sticks" who would be quite happy to see the London system replicated in Provinces (especially after witnessing the childish tantrums of some when they don't get what they think they deserved!)

This being the main reason why I am no longer a W.Kent mason and why I have hesitated for 2 years about the idea of joining a (local) E. Kent Lodge.

I also gave up Provincial masonry for very similar reasons.

[hackloon]

I've been awarded past provincial rank twice (in the same province). The first time was for being in the Chair of a lodge which was one of the oldest in the province when there was a new PGM installed and we were all given past provincial rank for being WMs who escorted in the new PGM. It was a very nice present, but I didn't feel particularly as though I earned it.

I was then awarded a promotion in past rank in the same province - after several years as a PM and being a member of a Grand Lodge committee for several years. I am proud of that, because I think of it as recognition of something I have done for the Craft as a whole (and still do).

My basic point is, yes, a lot of the past rank system is a little silly, but it's a useful thing to denote those who have done something and continue to work for our GL / Province. I've really enjoyed my role in the Craft and would have done it without the apron because it's been fun, but it's also nice to know that someone has noticed that I've given up time and effort to make it a success. What other people think of that is of little concern to me, I must say! Of course, we could all move to a system of PGR / SPGR, but I think the issue we are criticising is more that the current system gives awards to the wrong people or for the wrong reasons rather than the system itself.

Daniel

[JulesTheBit]

Hmmmm, well in your case Daniel you got the metaphorical Masonic equivalent of Monopoly's "Advance to Go" card when you were on quite a low rung of the ladder, and you're thus an obvious example of the system quickly rewarding merit and ability.

But I still think that the many rungs on the Provincial rank ladder, with several promotions possible during a Masonic career, has disadvantages and causes dissent. I'm a member of what I believe is still the largest Lodge in UGLE. Every "honours time" we get several resignations because "he got that, I didn't, its not fair" and similar complaints. The system tends to be divisive, and it causes too many PMs to network upwards for their next reward, rather than concentrating on what's really important, such as chatting up potential initiates as you and I will be doing tonight.

In your case the system has worked extremely well. But there are far too many examples, particularly in Provinces, of people being rewarded for the ability to work the system, rather than for pure Masonic talent and ability. Jealousy will prevail under the current system.

Some of the moaners who've never even met you will say you only got where you are so quickly because you're a PM of 357. We both know that's not true.

S&F, Jules
Your humble lodge secretary

[bboy]

This is all a little confusing to me, a simple Scottish Mason.

I'm not aware of Honorary Provincial Grand Rank actually being awarded, certainly not in Edinburgh. Provincial Grand Offices are 'acting' or i suppose 'actual' offices. Most Provinces have a progressive system where you come in as Tyler and potentially work your way up, each year, to eventually Worshipful Senior Provincial Grand Warden. Then you get presented with a lovely little jewel and you are the Past PSGW. If you want to by the regalia you can, but you would only ever wear that at a PGL meeting or another event when representing PGL. In Scotland no-one gets introduced with the Grand or Provincial Grend rank unless on an official visit.

Honorary Grand Rank is geven out annually to brethren who have made an outstanding to their own Lodge, this is a recomendation via their Lodge, to PGL who then pass it on to Grand Lodge. Generally this is awarded for exceptional service and it's rare for Lodges to have more than one or two at any time. These brethren wear a thin green ribbon with a small jewel of the Honorary Office around their neck , but will only wear their own Lodge regalia - Not that of Grand Lodge!

Even the Grand Master of Past Grand Masters will only wear their Grand Lodge regalia if on official visit. Lord Elgin being the most senior past Morst Worshipful Grand Master Mason gets presented as Brother Lord Elgin - no past Grand Rank is mentioned.

We too have social climbers but this seems to keep them at bay. Heaven forbid we ever had guys wandering about in green regalia and normal Lodge meetins, we're trying to make it more attractive to new members and after all we are all supposed to be on the level!

[JulesTheBit]

This is all a little confusing to me, a simple Scottish Mason.

I'm not aware of Honorary Provincial Grand Rank actually being awarded, certainly not in Edinburgh. Provincial Grand Offices are 'acting' or i suppose 'actual' offices. Most Provinces have a progressive system where you come in as Tyler and potentially work your way up, each year, to eventually Worshipful Senior Provincial Grand Warden. Then you get presented with a lovely little jewel and you are the Past PSGW. If you want to by the regalia you can, but you would only ever wear that at a PGL meeting or another event when representing PGL. In Scotland no-one gets introduced with the Grand or Provincial Grend rank unless on an official visit.

Honorary Grand Rank is geven out annually to brethren who have made an outstanding to their own Lodge, this is a recomendation via their Lodge, to PGL who then pass it on to Grand Lodge. Generally this is awarded for exceptional service and it's rare for Lodges to have more than one or two at any time. These brethren wear a thin green ribbon with a small jewel of the Honorary Office around their neck , but will only wear their own Lodge regalia - Not that of Grand Lodge!

Even the Grand Master of Past Grand Masters will only wear their Grand Lodge regalia if on official visit. Lord Elgin being the most senior past Morst Worshipful Grand Master Mason gets presented as Brother Lord Elgin - no past Grand Rank is mentioned.

We too have social climbers but this seems to keep them at bay. Heaven forbid we ever had guys wandering about in green regalia and normal Lodge meetins, we're trying to make it more attractive to new members and after all we are all supposed to be on the level!

Indeed, and a very good system it is.

I'm mainly a UGLE mason but I'm also a member of a Scottish RA Chapter. The Grand Scribe E is a member too, but when he attends he dresses simply as a PZ of the chapter, which is what he is.

This extensive honorary past rank system is peculiar to UGLE and its dependants. The motivation was sound when the system started, but it really has gone a bit too far. Changing it would take a very long time. "We've always done it this way".

S&F, Jules

[bboy]

If I can manage to spare the time, I'm hoping to produce a paper on the psycho/sociological need that some brethren have for ‘rank’ within Freemsaonry, what compels brethren to strive for ‘greatness’ or to be seen as great among their piers - most probably think they’re plonkers!

Some people need to feel important; perhaps their normal everyday lives are rather uneventful and mundane...... who knows? There is a huge area of research there waiting to be looked into.