regular vs legitimate

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regular vs legitimate

Postby harmonw1958 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:12 am

Can a lodge be regular but not legitimate? In the USA the argument is neverending, many lodges are regular in practice but stem from irregular or clandestine grand lodges interested in thoughts

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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby russellholland » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:45 am

If only we could use the "working tools" in a moral sense we could measure whether the GAOTU approves particular lodges.
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby Trouillogan » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:15 pm

In agreement between the English, Scottish and Irish Grand Lodges we have two documents copied into our separate Books of Constitutions: 'Aims and Relationships of the Craft' and 'Basic Principles for Grand Lodge Recognition'. They set out the basic and fundamental principles and tenets for regular freemasonry. All other Grand Lodges of the world, and by extension their constituent private lodges, which seek recognition by these three 'home' Grand Lodges need to abide by those same principles. Any that do not cannot be recognised as regular by the three 'home' Grand Lodges or by any other Grand Lodges which are so recognised.

So, if your Grand Lodge has our recognition as being regular then all is plain sailing. There is, however, the issue of territorial exclusivity to consider. For example, if there are two or more Grand Lodges (e.g. 'mainstream' and PHA) in a particular territory (in your case a State), then the above recognition can normally be accorded to only one of them unless they agree between themselves to forfeit that exclusive jurisdiction to co-exist in harmony and permit inter-visitation. There are several other instances of this which work most amiably - in South Africa there are five Grand Lodges in the same territory. There are other examples in the Far East and in some of the North and the South American states and countries.

Further, by convention, it is always for Grand Lodges themselves to request recognition by the three 'home' and other Grand Lodges, it is not automatic.

Yes, there are other groupings of Grand Lodges and Orients that recognise each other but which would not be regarded as regular outside their own group. So, for their members, visitation can be quite limited.

Just to be quite clear, I cannot speak with any authority on behalf of any particular masonic jurisdiction. I give the above information only from the rules that are in place.
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby Richard George » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:39 pm

Trouillogan wrote:There are several other instances of this which work most amiably - in South Africa there are five Grand Lodges in the same territory. There are other examples in the Far East and in some of the North and the South American states and countries.

Germany is another example
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby Kramer » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:40 pm

Seems to me the rules are quite clear, but they're being ignored in some cases. Is this fair to say?
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Kramer wrote:Seems to me the rules are quite clear, but they're being ignored in some cases. Is this fair to say?

That depends on what rules you mean. Territorial exclusivity is the back-stop or default but so long as there is agreement between the various Grand Lodges (having mutual recognition) in a territory over particular issues, then what they agree must be regarded as being acceptable to them.
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby eckywan2 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:44 pm

Im getting quite perturbed by recognition problems
I met some great guys in Nice years ago In Donatello , a lodge held in a monastry
and they are still friends of course
BUT they stood up to the corruption of Stifani and others in GLNF before the rest of us followed and eventually GLNF was returned to the fold
Meanwhile R L Donatello and others had moved from GLNF corruption and founded yet another French Grand Lodge GL A MF
( G L of Ancient Masons in France ? ) Now GLNF is recognised and GLAMF which stood up for the right reasons against corruption
and for that we dont recognise them now!

and how did the New York problem get so bad?
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby Lazza21 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:41 am

I have the same problem in France.I used to visit a Lodge in Poitiers regularly until GLNF was suspended. The Poitiers Lodge left GLNF because of the corruption
and affiliated to GLAMF now they are not within the UGLE fold visiting has had to stop and the English member who introduced me had to resign to keep his membership in England
regular. Still in touch socially indeed recently went to a garden party organized by the Lodge. I find it all very sad.
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby eckywan2 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:42 am

Precisley my problem too Lazza !
My Donattello friends are coming to Edinburgh soon and Iwill be happy to taRe them on a walking tour of The royal Mile pointing out the many masonic locations
(from CLX to St Anthonys Chapel) and general history
With trip out to Roslin Chapel and snack in 606, after tour of Grand Lodge in George Street
But I cant take them to a meeting !

My old boss just had a garden party in The Palace of Holyroodhouse and I missed it !
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby Trouillogan » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:33 pm

eckywan2 wrote:Im getting quite perturbed by recognition problems
I met some great guys in Nice years ago In Donatello , a lodge held in a monastry
and they are still friends of course
BUT they stood up to the corruption of Stifani and others in GLNF before the rest of us followed and eventually GLNF was returned to the fold
Meanwhile R L Donatello and others had moved from GLNF corruption and founded yet another French Grand Lodge GL A MF
( G L of Ancient Masons in France ? ) Now GLNF is recognised and GLAMF which stood up for the right reasons against corruption
and for that we dont recognise them now!

and how did the New York problem get so bad?

There is a long standing mutual agreement with the GLNF not to accord recognition to any other GL in each other's territory.
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby YHWH » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:57 pm

eckywan2 wrote: (...) another French Grand Lodge GL A MF ( G L of Ancient Masons in France ? ) (...)


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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby eckywan2 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:56 pm

Thanks I knew it was something like that !
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby YHWH » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:09 pm

harmonw1958 wrote:Can a lodge be regular but not legitimate? In the USA the argument is neverending, many lodges are regular in practice but stem from irregular or clandestine grand lodges interested in thoughts

Harmon Weston


good evening everyone.

I would like to investigate the issue of Regularity and Recognition between different Royal Arch Systems.

The Grand English, Scottish and Irish Chapters usually recognize those of other Jurisdictions in Amity, for example the French one (connected to the GLNF) or the Italian one (connected to the RGLI - GLRI).
"Grand Chapter does not accord formal recognition to or exchange representatives with other Grand Chapters but if a foreign Grand Chapter draws its membership from a Grand Lodge recognised by the United Grand Lodge then inter - visitation and fraternal relations will happily take place".
How do they behave in relations with Gran Chapters belonging to recognized jurisdictions, such as the American or Canadian ones, that work with the York Rite System?

Sorry for my bad english wwriting!
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby harmonw1958 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:46 pm

completely understood.

PM Harmon Weston

Trouillogan wrote:In agreement between the English, Scottish and Irish Grand Lodges we have two documents copied into our separate Books of Constitutions: 'Aims and Relationships of the Craft' and 'Basic Principles for Grand Lodge Recognition'. They set out the basic and fundamental principles and tenets for regular freemasonry. All other Grand Lodges of the world, and by extension their constituent private lodges, which seek recognition by these three 'home' Grand Lodges need to abide by those same principles. Any that do not cannot be recognised as regular by the three 'home' Grand Lodges or by any other Grand Lodges which are so recognised.

So, if your Grand Lodge has our recognition as being regular then all is plain sailing. There is, however, the issue of territorial exclusivity to consider. For example, if there are two or more Grand Lodges (e.g. 'mainstream' and PHA) in a particular territory (in your case a State), then the above recognition can normally be accorded to only one of them unless they agree between themselves to forfeit that exclusive jurisdiction to co-exist in harmony and permit inter-visitation. There are several other instances of this which work most amiably - in South Africa there are five Grand Lodges in the same territory. There are other examples in the Far East and in some of the North and the South American states and countries.

Further, by convention, it is always for Grand Lodges themselves to request recognition by the three 'home' and other Grand Lodges, it is not automatic.

Yes, there are other groupings of Grand Lodges and Orients that recognise each other but which would not be regarded as regular outside their own group. So, for their members, visitation can be quite limited.

Just to be quite clear, I cannot speak with any authority on behalf of any particular masonic jurisdiction. I give the above information only from the rules that are in place.
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby eckywan2 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:43 pm

Just reread this ...
Bro Trouilly
You are correct is stating the normal recognition of only one GL per country
BUT the problem of corruption in GLNF caused the strife
and the innocent brethren / lodges which turned their back on corruption
should be recognised NOT the ( hopefully ) reformed GLNF at GLAMF 's cost

I wish GLAMF well but I cannot visit them pourquoi?
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby Trouillogan » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:21 pm

eckywan2 wrote:Just reread this ...
Bro Trouilly
You are correct is stating the normal recognition of only one GL per country
BUT the problem of corruption in GLNF caused the strife
and the innocent brethren / lodges which turned their back on corruption
should be recognised NOT the ( hopefully ) reformed GLNF at GLAMF 's cost

I wish GLAMF well but I cannot visit them pourquoi?

Simply because the GLAMF does not meet the Home Grand Lodges' criteria for recognition. After all, the GLNF has mended its ways and, having re-applied, meets those criteria. I'm not sure but I seem to recall the GLAMF falls foul of the rules concerning regularity of origin but I could be mistaken and it's something else.
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby eckywan2 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:09 pm

Quite correct Troilly and I would love to find out whats behind it .
From GLAMF point of view, I believe they are not fully happy that GLNF have mended their ways, but GLNF are the big boys and perhaps that counts too much
GLAMF origin is that they stood up against corruption, which is accepted and GLNF were rightly thrown out, for a while.
so while I understand the predicament of G L's I still want to support anyone standing up against corruption
and I will be translating for some of them next week when they visit our GL premises and then will give them a historic / masonic history walk down the Royal Mile
but I cant take them to a lodge !
PS just got a surprise phone call asking for confirmation that Im attending No 1 RAC tomorrow. Why? Hon membership !!
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Re: regular vs legitimate

Postby Trouillogan » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:11 pm

eckywan2 wrote:Quite correct Troilly and I would love to find out whats behind it .
From GLAMF point of view, I believe they are not fully happy that GLNF have mended their ways, but GLNF are the big boys and perhaps that counts too much
GLAMF origin is that they stood up against corruption, which is accepted and GLNF were rightly thrown out, for a while.
so while I understand the predicament of G L's I still want to support anyone standing up against corruption
and I will be translating for some of them next week when they visit our GL premises and then will give them a historic / masonic history walk down the Royal Mile
but I cant take them to a lodge !
PS just got a surprise phone call asking for confirmation that Im attending No 1 RAC tomorrow. Why? Hon membership !!

Major congratulations on your honorariness! Definitely a big feather in your cap for application to duty. Well done!

I don't think the GLAMF meets the first of the Basic Principles of Grand Lodge Recognition, which states:

1. Regularity of origin; i.e. each Grand Lodge shall have been established lawfully by a duly recognized Grand Lodge or by three or more regularly constituted Lodges.

The Basic Principles stand regardless of the reasons for the existence of the GLAMF, unfortunately.
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