The Creation of UGLE

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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby admin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:48 am

Admin, again I'm glad you changed the United to Premier but who said the 4 groups present in 1717 had or have any right to use that title "Premier"
without permission from York or any consultation elsewhere?


Its too late to make that argument it ia what is , it was what it was.
It is part of History.

The Premier Grand Lodge of England was founded on 24 June 1717 as the Grand Lodge of London and Westminster, later calling itself the Grand Lodge of England. Convention calls it the Premier Grand Lodge of England to distinguish it from the Most Ancient and Honourable Society of Free and Accepted Masons according to the Old Constitutions

George Payne took it upon himself to write the General Regulations of a Free Mason, which were recited at his second installation as Grand Master in 1720. Very little is known of the period from 1717 to 1721, due to lack of minutes and written material, but sometime during this period the Revd. Dr. James Anderson was either commissioned or took it upon himself to write The Constitutions of the Free-Masons containing the History, Charges, Regulations, & of that most Ancient and Right Worshipful Fraternity: For use of the Lodges.

The Ancient Grand Lodge of England, as it is known today, or The Grand Lodge of the Most Ancient and Honourable Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons (according to the Old Constitutions granted by His Royal Highness Prince Edwin, at York, Anno Domini nine hundred and twenty six

Grand Masters

1753, Robert Turner
1754–1756, Edward Vaughan
1756–1760, William Stewart, 1st Earl of Blessington
1760–1766, Thomas Erskine, 6th Earl of Kellie
1766–1770, Hon. Thomas Mathew
1771–1774, John Murray, 3rd Duke of Atholl
1775–1781, John Murray, 4th Duke of Atholl
1783–1791, Randal MacDonnell, 6th Earl of Antrim
1791–1812, John Murray, 4th Duke of Atholl
1813, Prince Edward Augustus, Duke of Kent and Strathearn

From Wiki

The current proponent of the York origin are from The Reglar Grand Lodge of England or The Masonic High Council and is in no way any part of UGLE
http://www.rgle.org.uk/RGLE_Mother_Grand_Lodge_York.htm


It is part of History.
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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby admin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:14 am

The concept of the early stonemasons in England is well demonstrated by the history of Winsor Castle :

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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby admin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:21 am

Or you can view

The Queen's Palaces - Windsor Castle - 1 of 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Vi6Xt ... UTrekWjiWE

The Queen's Palaces - Windsor Castle - 2 of 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_g8mJf ... S_cO0jQIsM

and

Time Team
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/time ... sode-guide
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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby Richard George » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:08 am

Admin, again I'm glad you changed the United to Premier but who said the 4 groups present in 1717 had or have any right to use that title "Premier"
without permission from York or any consultation elsewhere?

Mmm. There's actually only one observation in all that that I would disagree with; the right to call the entity that they created 'Premier'. The word just means 'first in time' (from the french .. premier being the masuline of premiere - feminine .. both from the latin primarius) (can't use the correct spellings with graves etc as the board throws a wobbly!)

I don't think there's any dispute that the entity was the first of its kind ..?
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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby admin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:59 am

Well OK but it is a bit like saying why did they call England , England. I do not know why they just did.

I suspect it was a case of oneupmanship.

You will note the principals of all this were Aristocracy, or were part of it. One Lord against another.
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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby eckywan2 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:39 am

Once again Admin well done, you put your point of view very well
but as you say it was only a pub lunch and the first minutes of whatever you want to call it were , ( I believe, but haven't seen them) written in 1723
and the first so called grand master Robert Turner you date as 1753
So celebrate the pub lunch as such , you wish but there was nothing grand about it, and the self named "premier" GL's first minutes and first GM are much later
I keep repeating well known points acknowledged by so many
but free speech is important and those that wish to deny truth are entitled to do so. Oneupmanship ? well said in one word!! ..... J'ai dit!

Richard it may be a shock but I agree with most of what you say
but " the entity was first of its kind" yes agreed but when? 1723 minutes or 1753 first GM ( excluded bro chosen at pub lunch as chair as he was oldest!)

Brethren again I don't intend disharmony but insist that acknowledged points ....as is shown here, re minutes 1723, and 1st GM 1753, a have been admitted so often
so lets see what happens in 2023 and 2053 can take care of itself !
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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby Trouillogan » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:27 pm

As to York, Neville Cryer's The York Mysteries Revealed will help to put matters of those times into context. Its subsidiary lodges were regarded as part of the York Lodge and held no separate warrants. Whereas the later London group initially only kept a register (e.g. the engraved lists) of Lodges which it 'warranted' to be regular and could operate as separate entities. Although the York assembly later declared itself to be the the Grand Lodge of ALL England, that carried the meaning of 'north of the river Trent' and not as we would nowadays interpret the description. That there were the two Grand Lodges is beyond dispute, with York being the earlier in operation, though to a different system of subsidiarity. It is possible but by no means certain that the actual idea of forming the City of London and Westminster group could have had its roots in what was happeoning around York at the time.
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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby admin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:28 pm

First point I would like to establish is just because people do not agree should not cause any enmity at least it should not. I can admire and respect another point of view and sometimes I change my opinion.

Vibrant discussion is a wonderful learning tool for the readers and what you say can be viewed here by hundreds of Masons of all ages and rank. They are quite capable of making their own minds up after listening to this debate.

They will learn more here then reading, I suggest any of the knwn books on the subject, as with any book you will get only one perspective. Here you will get many.

And please join in the discussion.
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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby admin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:34 pm

I would suggest that the Union of the Grand Lodges does give UGLE more credibility.

1725 - The Grand Lodge of Ireland was established.

1736 - The Grand Lodge of Scotland was established.

The three Home Grand Lodges began to take Freemasonry overseas and the development of Freemasonry abroad mirrors the 18th and 19th century development of the British Empire.

The spread of Freemasonry throughout the world can be mostly attributed to British Empire Troops. English, Scottish and Irish.

Example
Prince hall Freemasonry :
Having been rejected by colonial Freemasonry, Hall and 14 others sought and were initiated into Masonry through Lodge No. 441 of the Grand Lodge of Ireland on March 6, 1775. The military lodge was attached to the 38th Foot (renamed "The 1st Staffordshire Regiment") in 1782.
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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby eckywan2 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:38 pm

Bill be careful I might agree with u again!
I learned to enjoy arguments in the 60's
when work pals were Young Socialists and invited me to hear "Red Rudi" in Glasgow trade halls ( used by Glasgow kilwinning no 4)
later (1999) I was part of Scottish Parliament Police Unit where I had the job of Lobby Liason Officer
IE any group intending a protest at Parly came through me
and I facilitated their needs, without fear or favour, no matter what the content of the protest,
allowing them to have protest without actually disrupting Parly, upsetting many nearby tourists and most importantly, safely.
Indeed it was a pleasure to be so involved in our "resumed" parliament as the neutrals, welcoming all visitors
( specially Americans on 9/11 )
Then after retirement I worked in Royal Household and that was a shock ! Me !
Still hate idea of ANY monarchy over Scotland but totally respect Queen and Duke as people
( but cant repeat reasons / stuff that hasn't been, won't be , in public domain)
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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby admin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:50 pm

I learned very early on - if you never agree with anyone - there issomething wrong with you.
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Re: The Creation of UGLE

Postby admin » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:42 am

The other evidence we should have a look at is captured here

http://www.masonicsourcebook.com/grand_ ... ngland.htm

Here are some of the main points

The recorded history of Grand Lodge dates only from 1723 when the first Minute Book was commenced, and so for a contemporary account of the formation of Grand Lodge, and of the first six years of its existence, we have to depend almost exclusively on Dr. James Anderson, the author-compiler of the Constitutions[ii] of 1723. The historical portion of Anderson’s Constitutions consists in essence of a digest of the legendary history of the building craft from the 'Old Charges'. Anderson (and later editors of the Constitutions in the eighteenth century, following him) copied this feature and brought his own fertile imagination to bear on it. In his second edition, the New Book of Constitutions of 1738, he brought this history up to date by continuing it down to the year of publication. It is this chronicle, in a style very like minutes of the actual meetings of Grand Lodge, with Anderson’s own comments on the development of the Craft in the period, that provides the only connected story of Grand Lodge until official records begin in 1723.

After the Rebellion was over A.D. 1716, the few Lodges at London finding themselves neglected by Sir Christopher Wren, thought fit to cement together under a Grand Master as the Center of Union and Harmony, viz. the Lodges that met,

1. At the Goose and Gridiron Ale-house in St. Paul’s Church- Yard.

2. At the Crown Ale-house in Parker’s-Lane near Drury-Lane.

3. At the Apple-Tree Tavern in Charles-street, Covent-Garden.

4. At the Rummer and Grapes Tavern in Channel-Row, Westminster.

Mr. Antony Sayer Gentleman, Grand Master of Masons, who being forthwith invested with the Badges of Office and Power by the said oldest Master, and install'd, was duly congratulated by the Assembly who pay'd him the Homage.

{ Capt. Joseph Elliot. } Grand

{ Mr. Jacob Lamball, Carpenter } Wardens

Sayer Grand Master commanded the Masters and Wardens of Lodges to meet the Grand Officers every Quarter in Communication, at the Place that he should appoint in his Summons sent by the Tyler.

Anderson remarks, in a footnote, that meetings of Grand Lodge were called Quarterly Communications 'because it should meet Quarterly according to ancient Usage', but he records no meetings of Grand Lodge, other than the Annual Assembly and Feast, until December 1720, and, indeed, throughout the period under consideration in this chapter, meetings of Grand Lodge (apart from the Annual Festival) are, in the Minute Books, always termed Quarterly Communications irrespective of the intervals—often varying widely—at which they were held.

Too much to duplicate but as well as the above :-
For those who would like a detailed read of
The Foundation of Modern Freemasonry by Ric Bergman
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oQT ... nd&f=false
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