wow

Delve into the specifics of Masonry, opinion and answers

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Re: wow

Postby Unforgiven » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:15 pm

Oh - quick apology, I have just reread my early message, and I think it could be mis-read.

To quote myself -

'Please do not discourage any Brother from learning the thoughts of another, whether that is attending a lecture or reading a book',

I did not mean this to sound that any opinion against mine that I have voiced would be taken as discouraging a Brother to learn alternative thoughts. Nothing could be further from my intent. What I mean to say was :-

'Please do not take my comments to discourage any Brother from learning the thoughts of another, whether that is attending a lecture or reading a book',

- meaning that although I feel you can learn alot from simply watching (and performing rituals), please dont take it that I meant Brother should take my comments as an excuse to spend time in actual Masonic scholarship.

Again, apologies for any confusion or offence.
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Re: wow

Postby Eckywan » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:40 pm

Dear Bro unforgiven dont worry about some gaps as most here have pointed out time will fill them with Your own experiances

Your right to worry about France in a way. Its great masonic history is much older than UGLE but is full of potential problems with so many types of ritual and more than a dozen Grand lodges only one of which we are allowed to meet with The GLNF Grand Loge National de France. There has just been a huge upset which is now resolved and we can visit them again. Its too detailed to go into online here.
On the other hand the welcome you will receive is as it is and should be worldwide but be guided by using correct protocol by arranging any first visit via your chain of Lodgfe secy , provincial and grand lodge etc. Again , on the other hand Im a great believer on kbocking , correctly, on a door.
Frances biggest Grand lodge is the Grande Orient whose lodges we cannot visit but they have a great museum at their HQ in Rue cadet , Paris which , like our own lodge museums will of course give you a very warm welcome. Bro unforgiven you will find that same welcome all over the world Use it , do not abuse it etc

Thw Wow factor is worldwide!

fraternally

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Re: wow

Postby Eckywan » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:41 pm

ooops sorry for typos everyone!
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Re: wow

Postby middlepillar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:15 pm

Unforgiven wrote:
Yet, again as I am simply a product of the UGLE, this opinion could be because of how English Freemasonry is structured and promoted, with the UGLE only acknowledging the four ceremonies of EA, FC, MM and HRA. All other Masonic Orders are managed by the Grand Lodge of Mark Masons. It is these Orders that I would, humbly, encourage a Brother to investigate at a speed and desire suitable for them.


Brother Unforgiven

I would just like to clarify or correct that this particular statement within your post is completely wrong. A lot of the other Orders in Freemasonry are managed by MMH, however there are still several others that are totally independent!
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Re: wow

Postby Unforgiven » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:35 am

middlepillar wrote:
Unforgiven wrote:
Yet, again as I am simply a product of the UGLE, this opinion could be because of how English Freemasonry is structured and promoted, with the UGLE only acknowledging the four ceremonies of EA, FC, MM and HRA. All other Masonic Orders are managed by the Grand Lodge of Mark Masons. It is these Orders that I would, humbly, encourage a Brother to investigate at a speed and desire suitable for them.


Brother Unforgiven

I would just like to clarify or correct that this particular statement within your post is completely wrong. A lot of the other Orders in Freemasonry are managed by MMH, however there are still several others that are totally independent!



Hello,

I apologise for my mistake, completely right. Grand Lodge of Master Masons, governs that particular ritual, as the majority of others are governed from a basis in Mark Mason's Halll. My eagerness now is to humbly ask what independent Masonic Order's exist independently? I am trying to find the right words not to offend, so please take my questions as an innocent enquiry.

Firstly, I assume, possibly wrongly, that your reference isn't simply to Masons who aren't under the direction of UGLE, but rather a different Grand Lodge whether that be anywhere in the world (including the couple of others in England) and their linked systems - all of which, understandably wouldn't be located in the Queens Street. I would like to clarify, that although I am a UGLE mason, I genuinely respect the quality of all Brethren. I respect totally the duty and belief each Brother holds to their own Constitutions. If so, then my comment was simply as a UGLE mason describing UGLE's official description of Freemasonry of which it govern's as quoted in our books as 'pure Ancient Freemasonry consists of three degrees and no more, viz. those of the EA, the FC, and the MM, including the Supreme Order of the HRA. (As a footnote I would be interested if this statement is going to be changed since the official changes in the recognition of the HRA in England under the UGLE - of which I do not approve - sorry but I don't).

For myself, I joined Mark, (outside of that description) as I felt it was orginally part of the Masonic process, which then introduced me to the other Orders directed from MMH. I understood them to considered almost, in essence, accepted by English Masons as being Masonic, but not directly of Masonic pedigree. I know I am stiring trouble here, but it is not my intent. Please note my first post suggested an individual, to avoid disappointment, to take the time to research the history of an Order to get an idea of its worth. Indeed the very word 'worth' is subjective. What is of worth to one individual, may not be the same as the next. For me, the worth is of historic origin. For other it may be advancement in a modern concept of masonic theory. Again, as my first post stated, I suggested an individual should look at what is important to them in being a Freemason.

That long winded explanation forwards my next question. Do we accept any Order to be Masonic because it only admits existing Masons, thus is made Masonic by this factor? By accepting them do we - so need a better word - betray our obligations by accepting them? Or do we betray the essence of Freemasonry by not recognising them?

I shouldn't drink too much coffee.

After all of this, my primary question would be, I would love to know what Orders are you refering to please, if you are permitted to say.

Thank you.
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Re: wow

Postby middlepillar » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:00 am

Bro

No need to apologise and you have not offended me or anyone else hopefully! It is good to see someone asking questions!

I will list some of the independent Orders recognised by UGLE as being regular and in no way interfere with your obligation as a Master Mason (Although officially UGLE does not comment)

August Order of LIght (HQ Halifax)
SRIA - Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia (HQ Hampstead) A Non Masonic organisation where you need to be a regular Mason to join
Knights Templar Priests (HQ York)
Pilgrim Preceptors (HQ London)
Athelstan (Grand Lodge meets at Leicester)
Knight Masons (HQ Dublin)
Operatives (Not sure where HQ is!)
Sir Thomas of Acon (HQ Littleover, Derby)
Squaremen (HQ Scotland)
Corks (Not sure of HQ! Probably Radlett as Chief Bung lives there!)

There are one or two others!
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Re: wow

Postby middlepillar » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:03 am

There are also Masonic Orders or Systems that are not recognised by UGLE that operate in this Country

I am aware of;

Ancient & Primittive Rite of Memphis Misraim
The Swedenborg Rite of Freemasonry

I have no idea how one gets in touch with these but I know they exist
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Re: wow

Postby wayne cowley » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:51 pm

middlepillar wrote:Operatives (Not sure where HQ is!)


According to my Craft Provincial Yearbook, the Operatives are administered from Eaton Socon, near St Neots, Cambridgeshire

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Castell Caerffili OSM 466; Fforest KT 582: Merthyr Tydfil R&SM 120, Athelstan 53; Dyfrig Sant RCC 295; Salem KTP 100; OSC 21 TI; SToA 31; AMD 53; Operatives, ROS
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Re: wow

Postby Unforgiven » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:58 pm

Dear Middlepillar (Love the icon by the way)

Thank you for the information, and especially assurance that no offensive was taken.

I an interesting list, some I have come across, but were totally unaware that they existed independently. I am interested in how many of us accept these, and even those of supported by the MMH, as Masonic? This genuinely isn't a challenge to your statement in any means, but just opening a question? As stated earlier see no issue in recognising such Orders as Masonic, but do we all accept the term in the same way. If so how and why we define them as such?

Do UGLE really officially recognise them as additional Masonic Bodies, do other Masonic authorities? I can understand Grand Lodges almost being forced to acknowledge the existance of other Grand Lodges, but, with regard to 'recognising' them as being Masonic is a different concept. (Again, I am not saying the UGLE is the historic authority on Freemasonry - I only refer to it as it is only the vantage point from which I can offer a personal description).

Do Grand Lodges really recognise this Orders, or is it left to Masons to accept the terms?

Some may ask, what is the relevence of this question? My reason is based on if there is a purpose beyond what we are all exposed to. This conversation is under Esoteric, if an Esoteric meaning was composed within our Craft, and our Grand Lodges are meant to govern and protect that instruction, then how can that be done with other authorities refering to Masonry existing outside of their control or influence? (For reference, again I would not consider myself an Esoteric Mason, but I am willing to listen)
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Re: wow

Postby Unforgiven » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:03 pm

wayne cowley wrote:
middlepillar wrote:Operatives (Not sure where HQ is!)


According to my Craft Provincial Yearbook, the Operatives are administered from Eaton Socon, near St Neots, Cambridgeshire

Wayne


Greetings Wayne Cowley,

Thank you, perhaps this also addresses, in part, my question. If a Craft Provincial Year Book advertises (if that is the right word) the presence of these independent Orders, does this constitute their official 'recognition' through UGLE?

If so, on what grounds are they acknowledged?
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Re: wow

Postby eric384 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:07 pm

Unforgiven

I know that you are looking at this from a UGLE perspective, but under Grand Lodge of Scotland, Mark can be conferred in a Craft Lodge (though the secrets of the Chair are reserved to the 1st Principal of a Chapter). In Scotland, Ireland, the USA and elsewhere, the Mark and some form of Veils are pre-requisites for Chapter. In fact England is out of step with most other jurisdictions on this. The reasons for this and whether there is validity in some of the other Orders beyond the Craft are all obscured by the mists of time, for example, at the time of the union of the Antients and Moderns in 1813, it is known that English Craft Lodges had been working March, Chapter and KT under their Craft Warrants.

MP

I don't know that there is an official HQ for the Corks. i know that notionally in Scotland it comes under Grand Chapter, but there is no list of Cork Lodges under their care. The brethren who do confer it usually do it associated with a Chapter, though.
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Re: wow

Postby middlepillar » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:32 pm

Bro Unforgiven

Parts of your question are very hard to answer because there is no real answer it is really up to the individual

As Eric has pointed out UGLE is a completely different set up to most other jurisdictions around the world and sometimes UGLE Masons make the mistake of believing thier system is the only correct one!

However just taking the 3 Craft Degrees, as you are aware in UGLE we work the Craft according to the Solominc legend, there are however several other Masonic Craft systems that we could of used; Noachidic Masonry (The Legend of Noah and his 3 Sons - Noah, Japheth and Shem being the 3 and Ham being the outcast or villain) Adoniranth masonry (Very similar to what we have but also different), and there are the Christian Rites such as A & AR, or The RER all of these have a 3 degree system to start with and all are practised in regular Grand Lodges around The World, Even The Memphis Misraim is practised by at least one regular Grand Lodge using that Rites first 3 degrees.

All of the other orders add to Those Craft Degrees, most Grand Lodges accept and acknowledge most of them, UGLE has never really commented on them for historical reasons, however they did recently issue a statement acknowledging there existence and saying they added to knowledge gained in Freemasonry or something similar.

The list I presented earlier are all Orders accepted as being regular by Most Grand Lodges, there are exceptions!
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Re: wow

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:02 pm

The position is that UGLE only recognises 'pure ancient freemasonry' consisting of the three degrees of Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft and Master Mason, including the Holy Royal Arch.

All other additional degrees are under different administration, many of which UGLE 'acknowledges' but does not 'recognise'. The list given by Middle Pillar shows some of them.
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Re: wow

Postby Unforgiven » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:40 pm

Worthy Masons all! (I promise not to burst into song),

Thank you all so very much, very informative answers. I had heard of the Noah concept, when I was looking into the history of Chapter (again from the UGLE version of research and history). See gentleman, he comes my arguement again for a lifetime being too short a scale to be able to experience all that our Fraternity could offer an enquiring mind. I have always held the feeling that books, indeed, history, only hold the essence of what is there to know, and always composed from the angle of the particular author. Nothing surpasses the experience of learning for yourself. I agree, take time to savour the rewards of Freemasonry, but it is difficult to find your perfect glass or able to judge the taste and quality of it, until you have enjoyed at least a couple of other bottles.

Another true comment is that many masons believe they follow the/an 'original' or most 'historical' version of the Craft, but not just those of the UGLE clan. From my own conversations I have learnt not only to be cautious, but also respectful of those passions. I, like many UGLE Masons, speak from only what we know and have experienced. The structure of UGLE Freemasonry is what we were invited to. It was our first home, we are told of its history, its developement and its establishment. We are told of who we can visit, what is recognised and what is not (mostly lol). I would describe the situation like a child being governed by its parents. Because our UGLE family brought us up, taught us and supports us, and we have no knowledge or experience, or reason to even think that a different structure could exist we accept and defend what is the only thing familiar to us. In addition, we are given account of our history in a Fraternity of trust, as all Masons are, as such, this too puts us in a mental situation of not questioning or doubting what we are beig told. We are like a child who through its early years has no reason to doubt the structure of its family, or the authority of its parents. All is logical as their is no experience to know otherwise. Our parents speak to us, we have trust in them, and believe they are governing us not just wisely, but also in honesty. As children we assume that all families operate the same, until we start to be invited round to our friends house and we see alternative structures.

Even though we may meet older families, more supportive parents, nothing changes the passion you feel for the family that brought you up. It is their lessons you take as a benchmark, just as all others, I would expect, find theirs.

Saying that, as an Englishman, I know we can be really arrogant pain the arks (and yes I spelt that right (27) ) when it comes to history and our version of it. Correct me, I sure I am wrong, but was it Churchill who said 'History is written by the victors', the fun of that statement is how you can alter it to 'history is re-written by the victors', or 'history is re-written by those who wish to be victorious' lol.

Once again, its a pleasure being here, learning more about my family and yours. Right, who can we have a go at now? (joking)
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Re: wow

Postby russellholland » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:00 pm

>'History is written by the victors'

Quite true, especially of the "history" issuing from 18th century Masonry.

In my view there is much that needs to be read outside Masonry if one is to recognise its components.

I found Sumerian and Egyptian legends to be most valuable.

Legenda: the things that ought to be read.
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Re: wow

Postby Unforgiven » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:05 am

russellholland wrote:>'History is written by the victors'

Quite true, especially of the "history" issuing from 18th century Masonry.

In my view there is much that needs to be read outside Masonry if one is to recognise its components.

I found Sumerian and Egyptian legends to be most valuable.

Legenda: the things that ought to be read.


Ah, now here I do find a problem, and I would be very interested in the balancing view point. I have had a little look at Sumerian and Egyptian theologies, or in most cases, supposed theologies - especially with Sumerian, as very little actual direct religious text exist, and I am interested in how these are meant to relate to Masonic systems. This is a genuine question from an enquiring mind, and not written to spark an conflict or to offend. But hear is my thoughts:-

1) If we look at Egyptian legends, we have to ask ourselves which version do we wish to accept and which do we wish to ignore. Egyptian legends are commonly quoted in absolutes, but they are not. Depending on which dynasty or region of Egypt you look at a different version of a particular legend is endorsed. A simple exercise is to look up the 'creator' in Egyptian Legends', you find that the result could offer Atum, Amun, Ptah... some legends have common elements, some are radically different. Often when Eyptology is quoted for Freemason, it comes more from a researcher finding the story that fits that hearing a reason why that particular story would be the logical one to have survived in our rituals from then, till now.

2) How did they survive? The key to even being able to understand the stories of Egyptian Legends is through reading them. The Rosette Stone was discovered in 1799, by this time masonic ritual is commonly accepted to be established. How could the literal content of Eyptian knowledge be composed in to our rituals if we could not read the hieroglyphs that contained them?

3) I understand that this would mean that they would have to have survied as either a practiced form or an oral tradition for nearly 2000 years. This is a long time for rumours to survive. I could understand if the arguement was acknowledging the human passion for representations of the divine, or of good conquering evil, and the additional inspirational classical stories of mans struggle to understand his place in creation. But these motifs are common in stories, from the Grail legends and their modern equivilent of Star Wars. In this case we can admire ancient theologies for being the oldest representations of these qualities, but does this actually mean they are the source of that wisdom. Wisdom, like truth, exists whether a theology recognises it or not, just because a theology is the first to describe a truth, doesn't mean they created it. - Does that make sense?

Hence my questions are, how can we be sure which Egyptian story is valid? How did it become part of our rituals? In what way are we meant to respect this Eyptian concept. To my humble understanding, its acknowledge within Masonic circles came in around the 19th century when Egyptology was the social rage with the international coverage of the discovery of King Tut's tomb?
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Re: wow

Postby gord_vokes » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:12 pm

pockets wrote:There is so much more out there than I realised, sria,aol,rc,oto etc. I have been looking at some of these and thinking they may be worth looking into a bit more. I knew of the usual suspects and joined Mark this year and was not really looking for anything else until I have been through the chair in Craft which is a few years away yet but I have to admit my I'm looking at things differently now.

pockets



Here's a couple of diagrams:


http://merseylodge5434.org/info/wp-cont ... nglish.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/865 ... ers_GS.pdf

It's amazing what can be found if you use the search box. The members here have created an encylopedia of useful masonic facts and sits.
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Re: wow

Postby Unforgiven » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:40 pm

Do I assume I caused offence? Or missed a point? My sincere apologies for either.

I am aware of certain Masonic writers who support the Egyptian influence/direction, of our Craft, and have argued well the Ennie, Meanie, Minie, Mo concept of information being passed down.

Again, apologies.
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Re: wow

Postby gord_vokes » Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:12 pm

Unforgiven wrote:Do I assume I caused offence? Or missed a point? My sincere apologies for either.

I am aware of certain Masonic writers who support the Egyptian influence/direction, of our Craft, and have argued well the Ennie, Meanie, Minie, Mo concept of information being passed down.

Again, apologies.


No offence, just giving you information. That's the purpose of this side -- masonic education for one thing.
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Re: wow

Postby russellholland » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:30 am

Unforgiven wrote:...
Hence my questions are, how can we be sure which Egyptian story is valid? How did it become part of our rituals?...


There are many logical problems but most of those can be bypassed by the use of Google. There are images from Egyptian times that clearly show Masonic signs.

Similarly a search of Sumerian and Chinese imagery will also provide much of interest.


Happy searching!
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