Delve into the specifics of Masonry, opinion and answers

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Re: wow

Postby Unforgiven » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:09 pm

gord_vokes wrote:
Unforgiven wrote:Do I assume I caused offence? Or missed a point? My sincere apologies for either.

I am aware of certain Masonic writers who support the Egyptian influence/direction, of our Craft, and have argued well the Ennie, Meanie, Minie, Mo concept of information being passed down.

Again, apologies.

No offence, just giving you information. That's the purpose of this side -- masonic education for one thing.

My apology, my comments regarding offence, was simply in a response to the the lack of replies to my last post, not to your previous offering, to which I am grateful.
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Re: wow

Postby Unforgiven » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:37 pm

russellholland wrote:
Unforgiven wrote:...
Hence my questions are, how can we be sure which Egyptian story is valid? How did it become part of our rituals?...

There are many logical problems but most of those can be bypassed by the use of Google. There are images from Egyptian times that clearly show Masonic signs.

Similarly a search of Sumerian and Chinese imagery will also provide much of interest.

Happy searching!

I concur with your comments about logical problems. And indeed Google is a useful tool to find 'possible' answers to those questions. Perhaps I have interpreted this site incorrectly. For myself, I look at these discussions as part of our personal obligations, to further our Masonic Knowledge. The tools we are advised to use to do this are the Seven LIberal Arts and Sciences. The first three of those, as we are aware, Grammar, Logic and Rhetoric. The classic purpose of these three is to understand language, to process the meaning of that language and then hold the ability to express the thoughts produced by that language in the purest way possible. The importance of them was for the classical concept of debate, for two parties to express their view point, sometimes to an audience, to present a question for the other to answer.

Some of us may even remember the school debating concepts.

It is helpful being directed to various google searches, some of them I was already familiar with, and I appreciate them. But reading material is only a small part of the educational system, if we just accept what is presented to us, without question, we cannot expect to progress. For example, many are still under the impression 'For He is a Jolly Good Fellow', is a masonic song, but no actual evidence exists for it. That Yankee Doodle was an American Tune. That Ring-a-Ring-Roses was composed because of the Great Plague. All aspects that people have accepted as fact, but actually do not seem to be.

I remember as a child reading Eric von Daniken, he showed a carving of a character with a circle on the figures chest, with a further collection of circles inserted within that original circle. He argued that the figure must have been a Spaceman, as the device looked like a telephone dial. It did, but I read the book when these dials were replaced by push buttons, which made me smile as a child, as obviously an alien of the 70's (a child's logic).

Indeed, I have read of gloves and aprons being found in tombs. Pharoahs also wore kilts, does that make them scottish? I am not mocking, but pointing out to accept one as evidence, we most also, at least review the balance.

As for the guestures in carvings. Out of the millions of various carvings of figures, in different positions, how do we know those were meant to prepresent a particular ceremony, which has survived to this modern age? How do we ignore that our girps and passwords, like our ceremonies, have also changed...even today when I visited different lodges, I saw different variations of signs...and I know of at least two Lion-paw grips.

My step father was interested in ley-lines, being a scientist, he devised a program to test the theory. He placed all the churches in his area on a virtual map and ran the program, and found a multitude of patterns of churches constructed in lines. But being a scientist, he tested the discovery, so also entered all the public telephone boxes in the same area and again a virtual equal number appeared to be on similar straight lines? Unless sacred grounds and the British telephone company have a grand design for us all - it does encourage us to test what we read.

I thought this was a place where reading was not simply the plan, that perhaps debate. Debate isn't a harsh word, it is a place of education. I am (hopefully) so willing to enter that education. I am happy to put my thoughts on the table to have them ripped apart, as they hold no value but to be thoughts. For me debate can improve my thoughts.
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Re: wow

Postby russellholland » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:28 pm

Unforgiven do we know...

We do know one thing from experience and that is that speculation alone leads nowhere - hence the general silence now on Masonic forums. Speculation (hypothesis) needs to be followed by testing (experiment).

In this discussion our task is to distinguish the Real from the Unreal, the True from the Untrue. This can be done by discovering the natural properties that distinguish a true statement from an untrue statement.

This can be done by using the "working tools" in a "moral" sense. Unfortunately we have forgotten that Masonry is veiled in allegory and so we think that moralising about physical working tools is all that is possible.

The working tools however veil metaphysical realities that can be used directly to test trueness.

For example, visualise 2 people, one known from their actions to be upright and the other to be opposed to human freedom. Visualise each one stepping on to the mosaic pavement. What happens to the pavement in each case? Why is that?

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Re: wow

Postby Trouillogan » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:17 pm

There are, in most jurisdictions around the world, Masonic research Lodges, Associations and groups which seek to separate the authentic from the fanciful by good solid peer-reviewed research papers published in their various collections of transactions. For example there is the ANZMRC (Australian and New Zealand Masonic research Council). The premier of these is the Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076 (E.C.) with its worldwide correspondence circle. You might find this a fruitful path to explore.
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Re: wow

Postby Eckywan » Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:12 pm

Dear Brop Unforgiven
Ive just come across this again after a few months
and am writing only to encourage you to visit wherever you happen to be at work or on holiday...

France is now available to us again !! Ive had a lot of fun there and with french brethren visiting Scotland
despite or even because of my bad French
Ive done a couple of brief history lectures and many responses to toasts as a visiting bro
mostly researched and translated with help from a French Bro ( I get away eith vcalling them Frog Freres they have a laugh at that unlike calling English UGLy)
and find that when a I try to read my reply / whatever they dooooo have to listen in as they are not used to my Scots accent speaking French badly..
But listen they do and appreciate that Ive made an effort
France has many styles of ritual ( and a dozen opposing Grand Lodges ..... at least)
and my favourite phrase is that used at end of reply / lecture / blether J'ai dit says it all !

On any visit I make a point of asking questions and hope to remember the "raison d'etre " for this and that
I often say to RWM (WM in England or VM in France) on entering lodge, dont forget to enjoy yourself too

So keep on enjoying your craft time Bro you will be forgiven any mistakes

J'ai dit1

Happy New Year when it comes
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Re: wow

Postby gord_vokes » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:54 pm

Happy searching!

I concur with your comments about logical problems. And indeed Google is a useful tool to find 'possible' answers to those questions. Perhaps I have interpreted this site incorrectly.

Greetings all,

To clear up one thing; when I wrote use the 'search' button I didn't mean to use google or any other large search engine, but to use the search button here at LodgeRoomUK. It will search the archives for former discussions on Masonic matters discussed here, rather than Egypt or elsewhere at some distant time. It is one feature not untilized enough, IMO.

As for diagrams of English side Orders: ... nglish.pdf ... ers_GS.pdf
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