Your opinion please!

Lay out any Complaints and suggestions so we can get to grips with them

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Gavin » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:15 pm

Richard George wrote:Gavin - whilst I respect your position, I'd say "reconsider". There's nothing wrong with waiting to join Chapter (or any other progressive order) until you've been through the Chair, but I'd personally recommend you join and then watch and perhaps work through the junior offices at the same time. You'll find that some things in Craft become clearer - and, in the case of Mark, you'll understand something about what happens during the Craft installation (in the inner working) that you cannot possibly understand unless you're a member of Mark. In my case it was like a light suddenly going off and I understood immediately without it having to be explained; something that would never have happened if I hadn't been a member of Mark.
In general, experiencing some of the other orders can definitely help with understanding Craft.


Hi Richard

A very valid and useful point. As I see more content on this forum and discuss more with brethren in my lodge I see there are a number of possibilities:

These of course relate to the many different journeys. Then there are the different times at which to embark on those journeys. Thirdly there is the speed at which the journey is undertaken.

So, I shall spend the period until and after my Raising deciding which journey; at this point I am inclined towards Mark and then Chapter. Then there's the timing at which to join and the speed of progression.

Lots to think about: In my mind I liken it to driving through beautiful scenery on a journey that I'll only make once. I want the satisfaction of enjoying the journey and taking in as much as possible of the view rather then belting through at high speed and remembering little (and understanding less)of what I've experienced.

Thanks again for your advice.

Kind regards

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Sentience » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:26 pm

Paul.w wrote:Having just about finished with my Deacons work I am fully aware of all the nights I had to study my book getting the perambulation correct in my head and at the same time learning all the words for all three ceremonies, especially as my Lodge insists on them all being done from memory and that included the charge as well.
I now look at the new brethren who are about to start on the ladder and the blank look on there faces as i complete my work, they often comment, and say they will never learn all of it and how did I manage to do it all from memory? I think it should be acceptable to have you book open in a creamery and prompt your self if you need to. When I put this to the committee of witch I am a member, the comments were we have never done it that way and never will. What are you thoughts?

Paul


Coming to this late and the thread has probably moved on, but I also agree with your committee.

There are no doubt varying views on what should be required to reach the chair of a Lodge and what makes a good member. Attendance, participation, ability to learn and deliver ritual with interest and a knowledge of who should be where and when and how would form my list of capabilities. Having seen ritual delivered by the orator with a monotone total lack of emotion and with more prompts than I care to count, it doesn't take long for the disinterest to manifest itself among the onlookers and hushed conversations to begin however rude and discourteous that is. Now I have a lousy memory due to suffering with depression for many years, but even I can memorise ritual providing I put the time and effort in and I don't come from a background where memory training is of any importance. I've even managed to deliver the EA charge with only one word wrong. There are some who do struggle with ritual, but the majority of those who say they cannot learn ritual are in my opinion simply not putting the effort in. It won't just stick in there and if I can do it, in all sincerity anyone can do it providing they have the basic ability. We all have different ways of memorising so what works for me may not work for someone else. The subject has to find methods to assist them until they stumble on that eureka moment.

With my candidates, I give them simple things to remember in order to build their confidence. The short Tyler's toast, the opening and closing odes, the absent Brethren song. When you put down on paper what they've learned and show it to them, they realise they do have the ability so moving on to parts of the ritual no longer give them the shivers. Standing up in front of everyone to deliver it is another thing however.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby David H » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:41 pm

Paul[/quote]

It won't just stick in there and if I can do it, in all sincerity anyone can do it providing they have the basic ability. [/quote]

I wonder what "the basic ability" is considered to be? I wish I had a penny for every time I have seen people comment (in effect) "since I can do it you must be able to do it too" and if they cant they are simply being lazy and/or not applying themselves which in many cases is far from the truth.
Quo vadis, S & F

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Richard George » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:27 am

David H wrote:
Paul

It won't just stick in there and if I can do it, in all sincerity anyone can do it providing they have the basic ability.


I wonder what "the basic ability" is considered to be? I wish I had a penny for every time I have seen people comment (in effect) "since I can do it you must be able to do it too" and if they cant they are simply being lazy and/or not applying themselves which in many cases is far from the truth.


Basic ability; how else do you remember people's names? Or what things are called? By continual reinforcement (seeing people regularly, seeing things regularly!)
How to remember the ritual? By reading it regularly, attending meetings, LoI and so on. Regular reading helps no end; haven't you ever read a book, then picked it up again a couple of months later and having started reading it for the second time you start to remember what the plot is? It's that easy; just pick the book up on a regular basis .. perhaps instead of switching the box on of an evening ...
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby gord_vokes » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:09 pm

It won't just stick in there and if I can do it, in all sincerity anyone can do it providing they have the basic ability.

I wonder what "the basic ability" is considered to be? I wish I had a penny for every time I have seen people comment (in effect) "since I can do it you must be able to do it too" and if they cant they are simply being lazy and/or not applying themselves which in many cases is far from the truth.

For a candidate to move from the first to the second, or second to third degree requires answering a list of questions from memory. In my jurisdiction most Lodges also require the candidate to repeat the obligation from memory as well. To prove they have the basic ability? Perhaps, but it was a great win for me when I was finally able to get through it after thinking it impossible.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby KTea » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:43 pm

Just want to update on my previous post, how delighted i am and suprised by how good Freemasonry and Learning Ritual has been for my memory.
I honestly thought i would struggle, but theres something almost magical about it :-)
Something i would like to look further into. (35)
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby allan0406 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:09 pm

I am now on the ladder so to speak, and can how see the different office roles advance, towards the chair, however there does seem to be a giant leap from SW to Master. I often wonder whether the roles are compatible with today's faster progression. It is interesting to note that Bro Peter Muir described his journey into the chair as taking over 10 years, I assume then well over 300 meetings, before his transfer into the chair, and seemingly a lot smoother. I know accepting the office of Master is a voluntary one, but is there a greater pressure in having to learn the role over a shorter period, surely learning the role whilst in post, is not good for the new Master or the Lodge.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Richard George » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:41 am

allan0406 wrote: however there does seem to be a giant leap from SW to Master.


And yet - if you think about it, have you not already had to learn (or be aware of) most of the Master's work whilst working your way through the various offices? How else do you know how to respond to his questions etc.?
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Terry » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:14 am

allan0406 wrote:I am now on the ladder so to speak, and can how see the different office roles advance, towards the chair, however there does seem to be a giant leap from SW to Master. .. It is interesting to note that Bro Peter Muir described his journey into the chair as taking over 10 years, I assume then well over 300 meetings, before his transfer into the chair, and seemingly a lot smoother.


My journey to the Chair took 6 years from my Raising and 30 meetings! (we only have 5 meetings a year)

I agree with what has been said above - it takes a LOT of effort to learn the ritual, at least it does in my case. Some lucky ones may find it easy but I have to spend a great deal of time reading it and reciting it over bit by bit, I also record it on CD and play it back in the car on long work journeys. I have found that I need to start 2 months before the meeting to be able to recite it all through a month before and then keep practising every day to get the delivery right. I would love to find an easier way (1)

I suppose the problem for some new Freemasons is that they see someone delivering the ritual and it looks easy but they cannot appreciate the time and effort it takes to get there and they are disappointed if they find they cannot learn it themselves within a few hours or days .

As our First Degree working tools teaches us "The chisel points out to us the advantages of education, ...... It likewise teaches us that perseverance is necessary to obtain perfection; ....." That is what makes it all worthwhile and gives a great deal of satisfaction and sense of achievement when you finally get to present it in the Lodge, even if it is not total "perfection" on the night when the nerves kick in. If it wasn't so then Freemasonry would be just another Club and probably wouldn't have lasted so long.
Yours sincerely and fraternally

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby allan0406 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:05 pm

Yes I agree with both Bro Richard and Terry's last two posts. I have not yet had the benefit of serving in all of the posts leading up to the chair, so I am not yet appreciating the value of the education of them posts. If I prepare properly as Terry has done, it will hopefully stand me in good stead. I still have plenty of time, without deflecting too far from the topic...at what stage would you begin to take on the Master's ritual ?
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Terry » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:22 pm

Allan

As soon as I was installed at the end of April 2011 I started learning for the following meeting which was mid June so I had about 2 months. Of course some of it you have heard and been involved during your journey to the chair such as the opening and closing so these were not too difficult but the big bits such as the obligation take up most of the time. I never had a book in front of me at any time and relied on the IPM for a prompt when needed. The only paper on the dias in front of me was the summons.

Some may advocate starting before this, when you are still SW for example, but I was worried that I would get confused and so throughout the journey to the Chair always concentrated on the office I occupied until appointed to the next one.

BTW out of all the offices I occupied (other than the WM - which is by far and away the best of all!! - I could have done it for ever (44) ) the one I enjoyed most was JD so have a good year in that position.
Yours sincerely and fraternally

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Richard George » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:23 am

allan0406 wrote: I still have plenty of time, without deflecting too far from the topic...at what stage would you begin to take on the Master's ritual ?


Now.

Start learning the ceremonies as a whole - that way you have a much better chance of understanding what you are doing - even as an IG - and therefore have a much better chance of conveying the solemnity and importance of the teaching lessons to the candidate. It won't do you any harm when you come to do the JW/SW/WM job either (27)

And like Terry, for me the WM job was the most enjoyable and I loved every second of it. I offered to do the Traditional History at our last meeting (I proposed the Candidate) with the DepProvGM present and I've just been asked to do the same thing at our next meeting. And I still got the same buzz and enjoyment from doing it as I did the first time.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby allan0406 » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:45 am

That is good advice from both Terry and Richard....Thank you both very much. I will be starting the Masters work after our Meeting. Have asked for full retirement, so have the time as well. (36)
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Sentience » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:11 pm

This list was always bandied about as a guide to regulate your learning of the ritual. (Tyler is an office without Emolument with us.)

Ideal world
Year Office Ability
1 Steward Working tools 1
2 Snr Steward Working tools 2 & 3
3 Tyler The charge
4 Inner Guard Second degree tracing board
5 Jnr Deacon First degree ceremony
6 Snr Deacon Second degree ceremony
7 Jnr Warden Third degree ceremony
8 Snr Warden Investing officers

A Compromise
Year Office Ability
1 Steward Working tools 1
2 Snr Steward Working tools 2
3 Tyler Working tools 3
4 Inner Guard The charge
5 Jnr Deacon First degree ceremony
6 Snr Deacon First degree ceremony
7 Jnr Warden Second degree ceremony
8 Snr Warden Third degreee ceremony
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby pockets » Sun May 26, 2013 5:36 pm

As someone who is not how can I put it, bright, might suffice and took on the role of IG 4 months after being raised and went through the first 2 degrees very quickly. I didn't get to sit and watch the roles before I was on my way so it came as a steep learning curve. I struggled with the IG and in 2 weeks have to do my first as JD and even though I have most of it I need to do more.
I have found the whole learning thing an amazing experience, I have had support from everyone which has been more benefit to me than having a book open during a meeting. There is a lot to get used too and public speaking is a big issue for some and that includes me, then there's the words and where to be, but and it's a big but, I'm never alone and everyone wants me to do well so I try my best and with the odd well placed prompt or sometimes just a cursory glance I remember where to be and I get by.
For me who is not bright to be able to scrap by without a book and by getting the support I feel a real sense of achievement. So in answer I'm afraid I'd say no to using the book in the craft as I would have missed some important lessons and feelings.

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby c.nicholls » Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:06 pm

I understand what your saying BUT ive never felt like that, its not that hard to "PUT THE TIME in?" Its not about who can learn what! which people seem to say all the time its about putting the time in and doing your best...

You could turn up and get every word wrong, but if you have given the time and tried(And they will know I promise) then that's all you can do.

Welcome to freemasonry !
My own personal opinion.........
Open ritual books in the temple is sloppy and a bad idea, the only one should be open is your official prompters1
I wouldn't have this in my lodge no-way, if a book is needed then step aside...you haven't put the time in
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Taylor » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:42 pm

c.nicholls wrote:Open ritual books in the temple is sloppy and a bad idea, the only one should be open is your official prompters

I have never seen an open ritual book in my Lodge ever!
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby c.nicholls » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:18 pm

petertaylor wrote:
c.nicholls wrote:Open ritual books in the temple is sloppy and a bad idea, the only one should be open is your official prompters

I have never seen an open ritual book in my Lodge ever!

haha that's why your lodge always work different workings....................like the old way in yours then?
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Moir » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:34 pm

Tread carefully Bro Nicholls, that's my Lodge your talking about....LOL!
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Taylor » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:47 pm

c.nicholls wrote:haha that's why your lodge always work different workings....................like the old way in yours then?

Indeed! If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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