Your opinion please!

Lay out any Complaints and suggestions so we can get to grips with them

Moderators: Peter Dowling, Peter Moir, MrBenn, Peter Taylor, JulesTheBit, middlepillar

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby BigI » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:45 pm

Some time ago i visited a Chapter in Holland and all the companions used their books.Those doing the floor work had a small book on a gold chain around their necks.The ceremony appeared to be just as sincere and intense as any other i have seen but flowed seamlessly ( i think,but then again it was in Dutch so...)
If there was a time when nothing existed, then there must have been a time before that — when even nothing did not exist. Suddenly, when nothing came into existence, could one really say whether it belonged to the category of existence or of non-existence?
BigI
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 504
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:35 pm
Location: West Yorkshire

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby asabovesobelow » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:59 pm

I believe the members of the GLdeF also have the book open in lodge.
User avatar
asabovesobelow
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 2486
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:02 am

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Chestnut » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:13 pm

Good for them.

Does not mean we have to adopt such practices.
Chestnut
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 701
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:05 pm
Location: Essex

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby asabovesobelow » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:34 pm

No! And I was not advocating that either, simply stating a fact.
User avatar
asabovesobelow
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 2486
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:02 am

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Raggedstaff » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:25 pm

Chestnut wrote:Does performance increase by more live performances or by plenty of practice and rehearsal?


As a musician I would say that rehearsal is a great way to learn in order to perform, but performing is what actually embeds it in your brain. However this is all academic. I don't think books should be in the temple at all. I think hard work and dedication are necessary if you want to take on an active role in the ritual. If you do not want to do that then that's fine, but wanting to be involved without being willing to do the work isn't an option.

To quote Thomas Eddison "Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work".
Tyler - Border Lodge 2475

Professional Copywriting
User avatar
Raggedstaff
LRUK Fellow
LRUK  Fellow
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:13 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby BigI » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:25 pm

Chestnut wrote:Good for them.

Does not mean we have to adopt such practices.


Neither does it mean that we don't have to.
If there was a time when nothing existed, then there must have been a time before that — when even nothing did not exist. Suddenly, when nothing came into existence, could one really say whether it belonged to the category of existence or of non-existence?
BigI
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 504
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:35 pm
Location: West Yorkshire

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Moir » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:56 am

I have had many a discussion about learning ritual and have always given my take on it by quoting from the First Degree working tools:
"The rude material receives its fine polish but from repeated efforts alone". There is nothing easy in learning ritual and to be a competant ritualist requires some bloody hard work.
Peter Moir
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 4122
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:03 pm

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Taylor » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:16 am

And to quote again what has been said by many Freemasons, "you only get out of Masonry waht you put into it!"
Regards, Peter
Provincial Grand Master of Forfarshire, PM Albert Lochee 448, PM Discovery 1789, Honorary, 49, 54, 99, 164, 225, 299, 317, 327, 486, 1220, 1308, Proxy Master 1371 SC, Zambia: Associate 198, Colorado: PZ RA Chapter Albert 503: RW Mark Master: RAM, CC: AASR 31°, PMWS, PGC: SRIS 9°: ROoS: OSM: KT: KTP: RCC: Squaremen
User avatar
Peter Taylor
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 20654
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Dundee Brother » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:31 pm

I agree with the committee it's down to lots of homework to make it work on the night, but as has been said it's acceptable to have a prompt if needed, but i would say pick one prompter and only one, i have been at lodges where the charge has came to a sticky point and a few brethern are shouting out which is no use what so ever!
I had a sticky point the other night during my first ever charge on the floor, which the RWM seen fit to allow me to try when i was doing my SB bit, to also do the NE Corner and Tools, But i did the final tool before the second tool and required a Prompt from my choice of Prompter and only him, and i recovered to complete the charge, (it was perfect in the bedroom mirror) this was with a substitute candidate, but the RWM has asked me to do it again (So he has show a bit of faith in me) when our new Candidate goes through in 2 weeks hopefully i will get it spot on, it's a lot different with visitors in the columns.
Lodge Thistle Operative (158)
Lodge Thistle Operative RA Chapter 416
Ye Corporation O' Squaremen http://squaremen.com/
Dundee Brother
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:25 pm
Location: Dundee Scotland

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby wayne cowley » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:30 pm

Dundee Brother wrote: i have been at lodges where the charge has came to a sticky point and a few brethern are shouting out which is no use what so ever!

Happened to me once when doing the 2nd degree WTs (we do the "long" version as standard)

Despite having done it a number of times, I went blank - I heard at least 3 prompts from round the Temple. Only problem was every one of them was wrong!

Wayne
PM Hamlet of Van Lodge 8334 UGLE (Caerphilly - South Wales); PZ Hamlet of Van Chapter 8334
PM, Caerffili MMM 1348; PCN, Caerffili RAM 1348; St Teilo Chapter A&AR 789; Brangwyn SRIA 75;
Castell Caerffili OSM 466; Fforest KT 582: Merthyr Tydfil R&SM 120, Athelstan 53; Dyfrig Sant RCC 295; Salem KTP 100; OSC 21 TI; SToA 31; AMD 53; Operatives, ROS
User avatar
wayne cowley
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14407
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 12:08 pm
Location: Newport, Wales, UK

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby BigI » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:57 pm

wayne cowley wrote:[quote="Dundee Brother" i have been at lodges where the charge has came to a sticky point and a few brethern are shouting out which is no use what so ever!

Happened to me once when doing the 2nd degree WTs (we do the "long" version as standard)

Despite having done it a number of times, I went blank - I heard at least 3 prompts from round the Temple. Only problem was every one of them was wrong!

Wayne[/quote]

Is this not why it is a good idea for 1 nominated brother to have a book open so that he,and he alone,can prompt?
If there was a time when nothing existed, then there must have been a time before that — when even nothing did not exist. Suddenly, when nothing came into existence, could one really say whether it belonged to the category of existence or of non-existence?
BigI
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 504
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:35 pm
Location: West Yorkshire

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:05 pm

Sometimes these wild prompts/guesses are not even from the same order, never mind degree or lecture! (4)
User avatar
Trouillogan
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 3234
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:19 pm
Location: West Sussex, UK

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby JulesTheBit » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:41 am

BigI wrote:
Is this not why it is a good idea for 1 nominated brother to have a book open so that he,and he alone,can prompt?

That's a good idea, but some prompters are very difficult to restrain. I visited one Lodge where a member was loudly calling out "turn right now" to the Deacon during the ceremony!

In my mother Lodge we had a brother who audibly recited the words through the whole ceremony. When I was JD I found it very off-putting.

I've seen 2 Lodges where financial penalties ("charity donations") for unwanted prompts and cellphones ringing are announced at the start of the meeting. It seems quite effective but it shouldn't be necessary.

S&F, Jules
JulesTheBit
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2176
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:49 am
Location: Kent, UK

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Taylor » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:48 am

No books allowed in my Lodge and our SW is the official prompt.
Regards, Peter
Provincial Grand Master of Forfarshire, PM Albert Lochee 448, PM Discovery 1789, Honorary, 49, 54, 99, 164, 225, 299, 317, 327, 486, 1220, 1308, Proxy Master 1371 SC, Zambia: Associate 198, Colorado: PZ RA Chapter Albert 503: RW Mark Master: RAM, CC: AASR 31°, PMWS, PGC: SRIS 9°: ROoS: OSM: KT: KTP: RCC: Squaremen
User avatar
Peter Taylor
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 20654
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby bboy » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:06 am

No books in 151 either, DoC is the ONLY prompter, and he's me!!!
User avatar
bboy
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 1227
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:49 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Joe » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:07 am

I vote for learning the ritual and not reciting from book - afterall we aren't a book recital club are we?. We are all busy but you CAN find time if you want to. Open books in lodge are IMHO a no no.

The bit about younger guys having less time to learn it is bull. I'm not in my 20s or 30s anymore - but I have heavy professional and domestic commitments as well as commitments to Round Table - I still find myself able to find 30 - 45 mins a day to have my nose in the book. If you want to learn you will find spaces in your day for it - on the train, dare I say on the throne wherever - theres always time.

Equally LOI is not for learning the ritual - its for rehearsing and checking what you do and don't know. The odd 'refer to manual' is OK but in general the books should be closed.

My proposer once said to me look upon your red book (Taylors .... only the best ahem) as a friend. I have and its never been hard work.

I think if you start out with failure in mind you'll never succeed in learning it. Knowing it off by heart also means that you get a feeling for the meaning of the ritual and your delivery is so much better.

Quite often for me 'Taylors' turns into 'Taylors with a broad smattering of Shearer's' but because I know the ceremony a substituted word isn't an issue because I know the import of the piece.

However, one WM of my mother lodge was so beset by nerves it was obvious that he would struggle. However whilst he had his own crib card he never opened his book... he wasn't a good ritualist but he was a good WM. So in some circumstances some written prompts if not obvious are OK...I think.
Joe Shearer
Craft - PProvGStwd (Essex), 7311 (Essex), 8665 (Essex), 9475 (Herts),
Royal Arch - PProvAGDC (Essex), 5705 (Essex), 8665 (Essex), 3256 (Essex), 7897 (Essex)


Nosce Te Ipsum
User avatar
Joe
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:14 pm
Location: Essex

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby bboy » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:45 pm

I would suggest that if someone isn't ready to take the chair they are asked to sit as SM or DM for as further year until they are ready to sit in the big chair! Unfortunately we no have the luxury of having huge numbers to be able to pick someone on their 'merit and ability' and usually have to take whomever is willing to take the chair.

Sad, but perhaps too many Lodges have diluted the quality of prospective officebearers and reduced the need to prove ourselves.
User avatar
bboy
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 1227
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:49 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Taylor » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:25 pm

bboy wrote:I would suggest that if someone isn't ready to take the chair they are asked to sit as SM or DM for as further year until they are ready to sit in the big chair! Unfortunately we no have the luxury of having huge numbers to be able to pick someone on their 'merit and ability' and usually have to take whomever is willing to take the chair.

Sad, but perhaps too many Lodges have diluted the quality of prospective officebearers and reduced the need to prove ourselves.


That's why we have put PMs back into the Chair for the last 3 years; until those progressing are ready.

We go straight from Sw to the Chair.... that's why our official prompt is the SW!
Regards, Peter
Provincial Grand Master of Forfarshire, PM Albert Lochee 448, PM Discovery 1789, Honorary, 49, 54, 99, 164, 225, 299, 317, 327, 486, 1220, 1308, Proxy Master 1371 SC, Zambia: Associate 198, Colorado: PZ RA Chapter Albert 503: RW Mark Master: RAM, CC: AASR 31°, PMWS, PGC: SRIS 9°: ROoS: OSM: KT: KTP: RCC: Squaremen
User avatar
Peter Taylor
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 20654
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby bboy » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:28 pm

That seems a lot of pressure added onto the SW before he attains the chair!
User avatar
bboy
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 1227
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:49 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Taylor » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:29 pm

bboy wrote:That seems a lot of pressure added onto the SW before he attains the chair!


Perhaps....but it can take 14 years plus to get there... plenty of time to learn the Ritual.
Regards, Peter
Provincial Grand Master of Forfarshire, PM Albert Lochee 448, PM Discovery 1789, Honorary, 49, 54, 99, 164, 225, 299, 317, 327, 486, 1220, 1308, Proxy Master 1371 SC, Zambia: Associate 198, Colorado: PZ RA Chapter Albert 503: RW Mark Master: RAM, CC: AASR 31°, PMWS, PGC: SRIS 9°: ROoS: OSM: KT: KTP: RCC: Squaremen
User avatar
Peter Taylor
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 20654
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland

PreviousNext

Return to What can be done to Improve Freemasonry

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

cron