Your opinion please!

Lay out any Complaints and suggestions so we can get to grips with them

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby bboy » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:31 pm

Ah!
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Moir » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:40 pm

As Peter has said....I took my first office in 1979 and took the chair in 1991 and with approx 30 meetings per year, when the big chair came it was a relatively easy step.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Dowling » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:30 pm

I wrote this in 2007.
This is not entirely my whole view on the subject but is meant to start discussions on the learning by rote of ritual.
Everyone has different perceptions on this subject has been discussed many times but is always an interesting subject.
It might almost be said to be a Landmark of the Order to learn the ritual, but why should that be the case? Who benefits if the ritual is learnt by rote and delivered by memory? Certainly not the candidate, for what the candidate expects is that the degree will be an experience and he will appreciate good and meaningful delivery. He certainly will not appreciate stumbling or endlessly prompted charges.
Learning by rote was a skill that was used in schools 20+ years ago. Today there are not many of us blessed with a photographic memory or the ability to deliver perfectly from memory.
In today’s society, with so many technological distractions that were not around back then and having less time for learning because of partners being out all day working and wanting to spend time together in the evenings.
Also some Past Masters if they are honest find it hard to get the word back into memory even if for years they have been demanding it from the junior members. How many Lodges have lost members because of the pressures put on them having struggling times trying to learn the ritual to memory?
Who actually speaks from memory these days? News readers, politicians and even clergy use books for their Marriage ceremonies and they do it every week. Why should Masonry be different!
We should be expected to learn the openings and closings of a Lodge and the work done on the floor from memory and anything that is delivered with self prompting (from books or paper) is delivered smoothly and with meaning. There can be no excuse from failing to properly familiarise yourself with the work in hand and just reading from the book without practising it, just does not come across convincingly.
We have to remember that we do not just deliver the degree ceremonies for the glorification of the officers but for the benefit of the candidate who it must leave a deep and lasting impression.
Don’t get me wrong, I actually love my Freemasonry and enjoy learning the ritual to memory as I personally see it as a challenge for me, I have actually turned down offices in some orders because I would not have the time to learn the ritual and feel I would not do the role justice if read from a book but that’s my preference but should we demand this of all members who have not the ability or time to learn to memory the ritual. Some good Masons are seen as unworthy because they can not complete long pieces of ritual that is demanded of them to hold that office. So as said before, learning the ritual by rote does not always make you a better Mason but by being unable to learn it rote neither makes you less of a man or a Mason.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Moir » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:50 pm

I hear what you say very clearly Peter and can appreciate that not eveyone is blessed in being a ritualist, but, and for me it's a very big but, If I was joining a lodge today and it was costing me £200+, then it must be a £200+ performance by all concerned. What kind of message does it give to an initiate when he sees Brethren reading out of books or from pieces of paper, not a very good message in my eyes. I can't get this excuse that Brethren don't have the spare time to learn ritual. With the space of two or three months between meetings, surely with a bit of effort books don't have to be used in Lodge. That's in my humble opinion of course.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby JulesTheBit » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:36 pm

My opinion? It depends how you prioritise freemasonry in your life.

Hopefully all our members know how to set priorities correctly regarding our family, work and faith, but to many of our members there are other calls on their time: other hobbies and interests, and maybe voluntary work.

Some of our members don't have time to learn the ritual to a high standard because other social/hobby priorities are higher than freemasonry in their lives. When this happens Lodges need to understand it, and give the ritualistic work to someone else who:

1. Has the ability
2. Prioritises their ritualistic work high enough in their lives to learn it properly

Trying to persuade members to prioritise freemasonry higher usually doesn't work.

Some people do not have the ability to learn ritual.

Many Lodges are "degree factories", and need a constant stream of new members who will progress and perform their part in ceremonies. Those Lodges expect every initiate to get on the ladder and perform to a reasonable level. That's unrealistic with the current situation re number of Lodges and supply of candidates.

If we had fewer, larger Lodges where there was no pressure to progress then we wouldn't have this problem; the only members who progressed would be those who were willing and able. That's the way it was once, and I hope it will be again.

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:22 pm

Having experienced occasions in both Craft and Chapter where the ritual has been performed from memory, and where it has been deliberately read, I have to say that the former is, for the candidate, by far the more impressive. Is it not, after all, for the benefit of the candidate that we carry out ritual working? On occasion where a master or other significant officer has been unable to attend, a ceremony has been postponed – what’s the hurry? In its place interesting and educational discussions can take place on many a Masonic subject.

Let us look for a moment at one of the purposes of ritual; and this applies in many fields not just in Freemasonry. We are carrying out a task that comprises many elements. In order for the symbolism of those elements to carry meaning to the candidate and to reinforce the principles for ourselves, those elements need to be done in particular ways and in a particular order. We could make it up as we go along but with the risk of missing out bits and getting the sequence jumbled, with the result that the whole becomes meaningless. Ritual assists us to do all the things we need to and to get them in a meaningful order. Ritual is the system by which we achieve this.

Now, do we memorise this ritual or do we read it? It has to be said that the act of attempting to memorise the words and actions has many beneficial effects upon the person doing so. Among these can be numbered: taking time out from the daily whirl to do so; continually going over the matter in ones head or out loud in the car serves to reinforce the inner meanings for ourselves; thinking about the effect which the symbolism and its presentation will have upon the candidate. All these are necessary to the way we apply ourselves to life around us. Reading the words in Lodge or Chapter denies us every one of these great benefits and seriously damages the effect upon the candidate.

Some of us are not very good at remembering the longer sections. The answer is simple – delegate! Dust off a few PMs and get them to strut their stuff. Believe me, they will enjoy the challenge. I've sat on the back benches for some forty years now since I first went through the Craft chair. Back then it was fairly hard going for me but now I find it is not too problematic to re-learn, even in my advancing years. I put that down to having heard it so many times; the brushing up process is now somewhat easier, so I enjoy being asked.

To the younger Master whose family responsibilities and daily avocations may appear to him to deny opportunities for learning and concentration, I say the time spent in solitude and contemplation will repay itself many times over during the aforementioned periods(!). If you really cannot take the time out at this stage, then delay taking the chair for a year (as I did) or even two. You will enjoy it all the more and make it more enjoyable for your officers, members and, most importantly, the candidate.

In like vein, during times past our brethren found the time to learn their rituals - and the records show how much they enjoyed doing so - even though there were no modern aids such as cars, telephones or the like to assist their daily lives. Yet, these same men also found time to build huge industrial concerns and run an empire. At lower levels, the pressures to remain in employment were arguably greater then, as one could be dismissed instantly almost on a whim and without any state support for family, other than the workhouse.

Is there really any valid excuse for not applying oneself to the lessons of Freemasonry and according it the respect it undoubtedly deserves? Or am I just a grumpy old man?!
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Kaiser » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:32 pm

Jayman wrote:Add one more vote to memory work.

it makes for a more memorable night for the candidate.


I have to admit, that having it said to me without being read from a book was most impressive at my initiation. I have always tried to get my ritual word perfect ever since as I feel that it is only right and proper that I gave as much for the ceremonies of others as was given to me at my ceremonies.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Dowling » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:02 pm

I must admit I am for memory work as I enjoy it but only if it is rehearsed properly. I have seen a really bad 3rd done where it was split and the persons had to be prompted every other word and could not follow what was going on.
I also had my RA Chapter Exhaltation read to me because this was the way it was done at the time. I thoroughly enjoyed it and emphasise was put in to all the words and workings. My RA Chapter now memorise.
There are pros and cons to both. IMHO.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby MrBenn » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:16 am

It depends on what you are used to - if you join freemasonry where memorisation of the ritual is the norm then you expect it - but we should understand that it isn't done that way everywhere - some GL's actually insist that the ritual is read. Reading it doesn't mean that one doesn't have to put effort into becoming familiar with the work - if anything it is more important that you become familiar with it, imo
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Taylor » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:44 am

In my opinion the practice of having to memorise the work is traditional and their should be no compromise. The "art of memory" was an intregral part of an apprentice and fellow's test in the "good ole" operative days. William Schaw, a practicioner of the art insisted that all craft fellows and apprentices "tak tryall of the art of memorie" (1599).

To me having it read only means that someone can read, memorisation means that that extra mile needs to be gone! IMHO of course.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Richard George » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:08 pm

My personal opinion is that ritual should be memorized and not read. It's for the benefit of the candidate; not you, not the membership - they've heard it enough already. And how would you feel if the person talking to you didn't look you in the eye when speaking to you? Doing the ceremony from memory can only make it a more memorable experience for the candidate.

I don't hold with the argument that it takes there's too much to learn is wrong- after all, if you're planning on progressing through the chair, you have at least (assuming no jumps) 6 years to learn the master's work - and don't forget that much of it you will already know as you've done it as IG, JD etc. - and if you pay attention in meetings, LOI and so on, after a while you pick it up drip-feed so to speak ... it's only a lack of self-confidence that says "I can't learn that". But isn't that what Masonry also teaches? Self-confidence? I only need to look at the case of a PM of my mother lodge. When he joined he wouldn't say boo to a goose - and many thought he wouldn't go through the chair. But with the right encouragement, he did. - and did an excellent job into the bargain. And he is so much more confident in himself.

So learning the ritual is also about personal growth.

Try - and you'll be surprised how easy and beneficial it is in the long run.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby gord_vokes » Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:58 am

A question for you:

When does the memorization start for you in Freemasonry?

I belong to two craft lodges, one doing Canadian Ritual, and one doing Emulation Ritual. It could be argued that Canadian is Emulation with some embellishments and minor changes. The ruberics are a little different as well.

What is strikingly different is when memorization begins. In Canadian it starts right after Initiation with memorizing the Q&As from the First Degree Lecture, the same eleven as in Emulation, but when the WM asks "These are the usual...if any Brother wishes me to do so" there is a chorus from the floor for "obligation, obligation!" After that the new Brother is taken round to the Wardens and proved on the questions about the sn, token and word of that degree. In Emulation it is done in the following degree proper.

The same thing happens in the 'proving-up' between the Second and Third degrees. On completion of the Third degree the candidate then memorizes the last obligation and must repeat it before the lodge before receiving his certificate as a MM.

These proving-ups and obligation recitals are done usually during business meetings and so the next degree for the candidate isn't scheduled until he has done so.

Of course in Emulation the Q&As are done in the degree he has obtained and then after successfully reciting them he is entrusted with the pw for the next, he retires, the lodge is raised and the next degree is done.

Although I like the Emulation ritual better in many ways to the Canadian, this is wheroe I find the Canadian method superior. Memorizing the first degree obligation was a large win for me and I feel not having candidates do the same in Emulation is a weakness.

It is where one discovers that yes I do have a memory that I can tame. (29)
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Richard George » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:43 pm

Interesting question.

When I was lucky enough to visit a couple of Oklahoma lodges and witness a 2nd and a 3rd, the candidates were expected to recite what amounted to the entire content of the degree they were 'leaving'.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Huw » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:12 am

One of my papers which I sometimes deliver in Lodges is about why we bother to learn rather than merely reading, so obviously I'm on that side of the argument.

LoI is not for getting the work into your head: you ought to have already done that on your own before the LoI meeting. LoI is for learning how to get the work out of your head, i.e. to deliver a smooth performance, which is a separate skill from memorising the work (and is often overlooked).

I can tolerate the idea of one (ONE!) agreed prompter having a book open in Lodge if he really feels it necessary ... but actually, if he's good at the work, he should be able to manage without. To be a credible Preceptor at an LoI, a Brother ought to know the work well enough not to need the book, although of course he'll have it in his pocket just in case he has a sudden blank. Certainly if a Brother wants certification as a Recognised Preceptor, he'll be tested to a fairly high standard with no book available (and also no book for those testing him).

I do remember, when I first joined, sitting open-mouthed in astonishment and admiration at the Officers delivering their work, and saying "I'll never be able to do that!" As it turned out after a few years of effort, I was wrong: I could do it. And today's new Brethren will also find, after a few years of effort, that they can do it too, in spite of what they now think. It does take some effort, and it does take some encouragement by those who've been there before, but I've never yet found any Brother at all who genuinely can't learn the work to a decent standard if he's given enough patient support, although in some cases it takes hours of one-on-one time with a dedicated Preceptor to get the first few pieces firmly implanted. Then it gets easier, once a Brother has realised that it's possible.

The insistence on learning is one of the greatest gifts the Craft brings to its members, because of the new realisation of their own ability which it opens up in our new Brethren. It's at least fairly beneficial for all, and I've seen it work remarkable wonders for some. Those jurisdictions which read (and lodges here which also read) just don't understand how much they're missing out ... they're barely doing freemasonry at all, they just don't get the point, and no wonder they can't retain members.

T & F,

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Trouillogan » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:02 pm

It has been likened to being a midwife - it's all about delivery! (2)
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Peter Taylor » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:48 pm

Huw wrote:Those jurisdictions which read (and lodges here which also read) just don't understand how much they're missing out ... they're barely doing freemasonry at all, they just don't get the point, and no wonder they can't retain members.

T & F,

Huw


Bang on!

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby TWells » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:22 pm

Huw wrote:
To be a credible Preceptor at an LoI, a Brother ought to know the work well enough not to need the book, although of course he'll have it in his pocket just in case he has a sudden blank. Certainly if a Brother wants certification as a Recognised Preceptor, he'll be tested to a fairly high standard with no book available (and also no book for those testing him).



Hi Huw,

Could you please explain the second sentence?
Is it just Emulation Lodge of Improvment that certificates Preceptor's, or do they certificate for private lodges as well?

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Huw » Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:42 pm

Hi Alun.

AlunElderBrown wrote:Is it just Emulation Lodge of Improvment that certificates Preceptor's, or do they certificate for private lodges as well?

Ah. Yes, sorry, I probably ought to have explained further in the first place.

Emulation operates a system of Recognition for private Lodge Preceptors and LoIs, and what it means is that the LoI and its Preceptor(s) are publicly acknowledged by the Emulation Committee to be teaching our Working to a good standard, and they get a listing in our yearbook. Obviously some LoIs aren't interested in our opinion of their efforts, but there are quite a few others who do like to have our "seal of approval". Obtaining Recognition mainly depends upon testing of the Preceptor (although there are some paperwork requirements as well). Usually the Recognition testing is done in London: the Preceptor makes an appointment to meet with a delegation of the Emulation Committee who run him through his paces, typically taking 40-50 minutes. Sometimes, if there are several Preceptors seeking Recognition in the same region of the country at the same time, then the Committee delegation will travel to the Preceptors instead. Currently there are 43 Recognised LoIs around the country ... although some don't currently have a Recognised Preceptor, because we allow a couple of years to find a new Recognised Preceptor after a previous incumbent retires or dies. We (Emulation) would like to expand this system, perhaps especially in those Provinces which don't currently have any Recognised LoI, so applications to our Secretary are welcome!

However, all this applies only to those using Emulation Working. There is nothing to prevent the custodians of other Workings (e.g. the Association for Taylor's Working, etc.) from operating a similar system, but so far as I'm aware none of them do. Perhaps they should consider it, but obviously that's up to them.

T & F,

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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Richard George » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:59 am

That's interesting Huw! I didn't know about this.

Are there any certificated Preceptors in Cambs? If there are, it would be worth knowing who they are.
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Re: Your opinion please!

Postby Huw » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:17 pm

Hi Richard.

Richard George wrote:Are there any certificated Preceptors in Cambs? If there are, it would be worth knowing who they are.

Unfortunately, no. Cambridgeshire is one of the Provinces in which there is currently no Recognised LoI. If you'd be interested in changing this situation and know of a local LoI which works Emulation to a high standard, then I'm all ears.

Perhaps it might be an idea if we (Emulation) were to send courtesy copies of our yearbook to each ProvGSec. So far as I'm aware, we currently don't do this. I'll have a word with the Secretary. It comes out in January each year, so the current edition is probably out of stock by now.

T & F,

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