Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

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Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby kimosabe » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:39 pm

I was wondering what the effects of updating the current version of Craft ritual wording would be, as there are countless examples of outdated words in our rituals that could easily be changed for modern/current English words and doing so might ease the pain of learning outdated lingo verbatim. Out rituals appear to be a bit of a shuffled deck of Ye Olde English and current English, as if the decorators went off to price up another job and never returned.

Whence come you? vs Where have you come from?
Lest vs unless
o'er vs over/across
Whither directing your course? vs Where are you going?

The only places where I have ever heard such Ye Olde English words used, are churches, Shakespearean plays and period dramas. Churches use outdated language to allude to some historical qualification for when masses were held in Latin, for illiterate congregations as the Church needed to retain power. I suggest that as we are not illiterate or enacting a period drama, ut update nostrum ritual?
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Re: Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby admin » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:53 pm

Had this small arument in Essex over the new club for Masons under 37.

I put my point your in freemasonry and you became Masons knowing all us old bug***s were in it. So QED the ols system worked.

As me old Dad always said 'Son if it aint broke dont try and fix it'.

kimosabe you are in it , you answer the question the old way did not stop you ?

You have hit on the name of my Childhood Hero's sidekick - The Lone Ranger - many hours spend on the arm of the sofa chasing the bad Guys.
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Re: Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby russellholland » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:49 pm

In my view the real problem is not updating the words but damage accidentally done to the ritual so many times by brethren not in possession of the genuine secrets.
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Re: Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby mindmagic » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:56 am

Have you ever seen the East End opening?

http://www.standrew518.co.uk/RENDITIONS/Opening.php
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Re: Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby Trouillogan » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:19 am

Using the older linguistic style does some important things for many brethren:
  • Helps to make it special.
  • The use of certain words, phrases and grammatical forms provides significant links to other related passages in ways modern language would find difficult to achieve.
  • Makes us study the text carefully and thereby assist us in discovering the underlying messages.
  • Imparts the meanings that were intended by the compilers - there are seldom modern equivalents.
  • Makes memorising not so difficult as it would be in flat modern English.
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Re: Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby mindmagic » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:00 am

I agree with all that, but I should mention that some of the more archaic words present a problem for Brethren for whom English is not their first language. We have several in our lodge and they are going to struggle, especially when they get to the Chair. Translating the whole ritual into modern English would be a disaster, though, as my reductio ad absurbum example above illustrates.
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Re: Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby Trouillogan » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:27 am

mindmagic wrote:I agree with all that, but I should mention that some of the more archaic words present a problem for Brethren for whom English is not their first language. We have several in our lodge and they are going to struggle, especially when they get to the Chair. Translating the whole ritual into modern English would be a disaster, though, as my reductio ad absurbum example above illustrates.

Agreed that some words and their uses are archaic and some foreigners may struggle - masonry is not always easy! Those words, however, are usually very precise in meaning and the study is worthwhile if only to expand the knowledge of vocabulary. Also, the use of rhyming triplicities is an archaic method of driving home important points. I don't think we could do that as effectively in modern English.
Those who are able to compare the two, generally find eighteenth century craft texts much easier to learn and deliver than nineteenth century, say, Rose Croix. Books were scarce and expensive in the former period, requiring frequent use of memory in everyday day life. From the nineteenth century onwards we have been able to rely on printed texts more readily. So the need for concise verbal constructs that are easy to memorise has diminished. In schools nowadays, you have to go a long way to find poetry recitals from memory. It seems that youngsters are not being taught how to learn - but that is something very practical that we do as a matter of course in the journey of self improvement.
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Re: Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby MrBenn » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:09 pm

They are being taught how to learn - just not how to learn by rote and memorise - critical thinking skills and problem solving are far more important to the current and future world of work than parroting rote learned text
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Re: Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:15 am

MrBenn wrote:They are being taught how to learn - just not how to learn by rote and memorise - critical thinking skills and problem solving are far more important to the current and future world of work than parroting rote learned text

Quite so but they do not appear to be taught recitation. I'm not advocating recitation devoid of understanding, far from it. Masonic understanding is absolutely necessary but it's the recitation part which is now missing.
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Re: Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby kimosabe » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:51 pm

So if a person has great difficulty in learning rituals such that they cannot be recited near verbatim from memory, that precludes them from being a good Mason? Or looking at it the other way, being able to recite rituals near verbatim, means a person is a good Mason?

I think a modern view of this highly perplexing logical cul-de-sac, is that regardless of whether or not a Mason 'is a good ritualist', his actions should always speak louder than his words when it comes to the judgements of where in the Honours rankings he should be placed. Or is Masonry still saying that unless you can score three strikes on the matchbox, you don't count?

Bring on the auto-cues/ prompts to avoid the excruciating scenes which ruin many a meeting and the otherwise harmonious experiences of Freemasonry and for when all you need is that one word to keep things rolling and it all vanishes, leaving a huge gaping hole in the flow..... how many times have you heard said "I'd like to congratulate the lodge on the excellent work in the Temple today..." when everyone involved is still recovering ?
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Re: Anglicus verba modern Rodney. Anglicus verba modern.

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:22 pm

Your premise would appear to be flawed. There are many very good freemasons who attend their lodges and take little in any part in spoken ritual performance. Their freemasonry is in other directions. The lessons of the rituals are still inculcated in those brethren without them actively involving themselves in ritual delivery.
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