Freemasonry for the 21st century.

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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby London Mason » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:51 pm

MrBenn wrote:
"we have the university scheme which is a way of fast tracking potential members to be our future leaders"




Errr, no - thats not the point of the scheme at all


That's right. The point of the University Scheme is to allow quality candidates to join our fraternity at a slightly younger age, so that they can take their time over getting to the chair and joining other orders. At the end of a typical three year degree course, the candidate would have been initiated, passed and raised and ready to join a lodge where ever their professional career takes them (indeed, Metropolitan Grand Lodge has a number of lodges that welcome joining members from a University Scheme lodge that have moved to London). Maybe the future leaders of Freemasonry in England and Wales will come from one of these scheme lodges, but who knows? All I know is that due to this (and other factors), numbers of masons in London is levelling off and the average age is slowly going down. Surely that's a good thing?
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:48 pm

London Mason wrote: the average age is slowly going down. Surely that's a good thing?


Why?
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby eckywan2 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:52 pm

Ive noticed David
I'm getting older
Me !
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby MrBenn » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:28 am

David H wrote:
London Mason wrote: the average age is slowly going down. Surely that's a good thing?


Why?


Good question - I'll offer my opinion on why it is good
The baby boomer generation are aging - but have disposable income - most of them who would have been interested in masonry are already members
Generation X and Generation Y are generally disaffected by institutions such as freemasonry, and may already have rejected it
Gen Z - the millenials - are our growth demographic - they are interested in masonry - often in the historical and spiritual side and are the ones who are active in the light blue clubs that have been started
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:09 pm

David H wrote:
London Mason wrote: the average age is slowly going down. Surely that's a good thing?


Why?

We were all young once - for me, a long time ago. And, David, I remember you telling me that you wished you had joined when you were younger! Surely it is only by passing the S&C on to future generations can the institution continue to flourish. It doesn't mean that those in their later years are not attracted to Freemasonry - they are - and so are the more numerous youngsters. Many will fall by the wayside but that is the way of the world. Newer generations may have different ideas from us and that is evolution but, with tolerance, care and guidance from those more experienced, the core values should continue as they have from time immemorial.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:40 pm

MrBenn wrote:The baby boomer generation are aging - but have disposable income - most of them who would have been interested in masonry are already members


I disagree but having just spent 20 mins replying and then losing my pearls of wisdom due to yet another loss of my connection I am going to have to bow out.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:56 pm

Trouillogan wrote:
David H wrote:
London Mason wrote: the average age is slowly going down. Surely that's a good thing?


Why?

We were all young once - for me, a long time ago. And, David, I remember you telling me that you wished you had joined when you were younger! Surely it is only by passing the S&C on to future generations can the institution continue to flourish. It doesn't mean that those in their later years are not attracted to Freemasonry - they are - and so are the more numerous youngsters. Many will fall by the wayside but that is the way of the world. Newer generations may have different ideas from us and that is evolution but, with tolerance, care and guidance from those more experienced, the core values should continue as they have from time immemorial.


I did say that :) I am also tired of saying that I believe it is counter intuitive for UGLE to be concentrating ONLY (that's what I was told by a senior representative) on young people. Seek out and open the doors to ALL GOOD MEN irrespective of age!
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:38 pm

David H wrote:
Trouillogan wrote:We were all young once - for me, a long time ago. And, David, I remember you telling me that you wished you had joined when you were younger! Surely it is only by passing the S&C on to future generations can the institution continue to flourish. It doesn't mean that those in their later years are not attracted to Freemasonry - they are - and so are the more numerous youngsters. Many will fall by the wayside but that is the way of the world. Newer generations may have different ideas from us and that is evolution but, with tolerance, care and guidance from those more experienced, the core values should continue as they have from time immemorial.


I did say that :) I am also tired of saying that I believe it is counter intuitive for UGLE to be concentrating ONLY (that's what I was told by a senior representative) on young people. Seek out and open the doors to ALL GOOD MEN irrespective of age!

Yes, David, I agree; UGLE headquarters do seem to be focussing at the moment on the younger end of the scale - but not exclusively so by any means. Is that an easier target? I don't know. But I am seeing all ages coming in, at least locally and in my neighbouring provinces. As a matter of perspective, although a lot of noise is being made about Universities Scheme Lodges in UGLE, there are only 72 of them, so the proportion able to initiate at 18+ is really quite small.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:30 pm

"UGLE headquarters do seem to be focussing at the moment on the younger end of the scale - but not exclusively so by any means." Well I can only report what I was told by a senior source which is that they are focusing EXCLUSIVELY ON "the younger end of the scale". I have read the Lodge minutes and am delighted to see reports of "all ages coming in" - my point is that if the person who stated that UGLE are focusing on the younger end of the scale is to be believed that is serendipitous rather than the result of actions on UGLE's part. I know well that individual lodges are making efforts but why on earth does UGLE focus its attentions on such a narrow age range. Anyway as has been pointed out if that is what they have chosen to do that is up to them and so with great regret I will be voting with my feet - I have already wasted far too much of peoples time on this
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Richard George » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:37 am

What you all fail to realise (or seems to) is that every lodge is able to initiate members at 18; you just need a dispensation - even the university scheme lodge still have to apply for one, it's just that they do it more regularly.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:15 pm

Richard George wrote:What you all fail to realise (or seems to) is that every lodge is able to initiate members at 18; you just need a dispensation - even the university scheme lodge still have to apply for one, it's just that they do it more regularly.

That is quite true but just you try to get one! Unless there are really exceptional circumstances, it's very difficult. By contrast, University Scheme Lodges get dispensations for 18+ very easily; one could almost say automatically. I stand to be corrected on this but I understand that Apollo and Isaac Newton get annual bloc dispensations for 18+ students under long-standing custom.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Richard George » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:15 pm

I can state with absolute confidence that INUL don't. They have to apply for each meeting and name the candidates - who are then named on the dispensation along with their ages. They also have to apply to put more through than the maximum permitted per meeting - again names are specified. How do I know? I was the Provincial Assistant Grand Secretary for Cambridgeshire for 6 years (until last June) and have personally signed said dispensations on behalf of the PGM when my 'boss' was on holiday. We have also on occasion provided dispensation for ordinary lodges - for example, a Lewis who was about to go to university but wanted to join his father's lodge and visit the university one.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:19 pm

Richard George wrote:I can state with absolute confidence that INUL don't. They have to apply for each meeting and name the candidates - who are then named on the dispensation along with their ages. They also have to apply to put more through than the maximum permitted per meeting - again names are specified. How do I know? I was the Provincial Assistant Grand Secretary for Cambridgeshire for 6 years (until last June) and have personally signed said dispensations on behalf of the PGM when my 'boss' was on holiday. We have also on occasion provided dispensation for ordinary lodges - for example, a Lewis who was about to go to university but wanted to join his father's lodge and visit the university one.

Thank you, Richard, for that prompt correction and enlightenment. I'll take that on board.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby kimosabe » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:50 pm

I'm so glad that this thread has been the focus of such thoughtful and constructive input. I never intended to simply chuck it in and leave it there but as that has been the case since I first posted it, here's what I think.

Just take 2 minutes to scan back through the tread to see who you all are, posting in this thread. A handful of dedicated thinkers and sincere Masons who want nothing more than to see the success of Freemasonry but who see it 'declining' and the same select few who, I suppose, keep threads alive. None of your thoughts and ideas are so outlandish so as to be unachievable or ridiculous, so have they already been considered by GQS? I would hazard that they have and that they have been avoided in favour of a 'bums on seats' rebranding approach to the 'must increase the numbers' project. The question is, why?

What is it that causes an organisation to think that it requires continual expansion in order to remain viable? Why does it fear contraction?
What is it that causes lodges to need new members, otherwise they cannot simply meet as the social/charitable group they are?
Do we still need a United Grand Lodge or can provinces do a better job as decentralised organisations?

I hope you can see that i'm not simply poking holes.

I wish you all well and just so you know, i'm proud of every one of you for being such generous beings.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby eric384 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:18 pm

kimosabe wrote: I would hazard that they have and that they have been avoided in favour of a 'bums on seats' rebranding approach to the 'must increase the numbers' project. The question is, why?

What is it that causes an organisation to think that it requires continual expansion in order to remain viable? Why does it fear contraction?
What is it that causes lodges to need new members, otherwise they cannot simply meet as the social/charitable group they are?
Do we still need a United Grand Lodge or can provinces do a better job as decentralised organisations?


The answer to the first question is that it costs a lot of money to maintain and run a building like GQS (and also MMH). To give them up and move to something "lesser" in a less expensive part of the city (or even the country) may be seen by some as Masonry in retreat and an admission that the organisaion is in a downward spiral towards terminal decline.

As a result of that, the answer to question two is that new members are needed to replace existing members and to ensure that numbers don't decline so that those who remail face ever increasing annual dues at a rate that will lose even more. I am aware there are some lodges which haven't had candidates for years, but the membership is static and they are happy to continue swapping offices around. If they get a candidate, that's fine.

Question three - whether we like it or not, getting rid of Grand Lodge all together isn't a good idea. If you PGLs do all the work, they would need increased administration teams and you would still need Grand Lodge for international affairs, recognition, and, unfortunately, for disciplinary matters.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:54 pm

During this year I have been a member of 2 lodges - an UGLE one and a GLoS one. Both of them are regularly initiating new members. My subscription in Scotland for this year was £30 and has not changed for several years. My subscription for England was £144 this year following a hefty increase last year. Next year the subscription is to be increased by a further 17%!
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby MrBenn » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:37 am

How much does GLoS charge each of it's lodges?
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Peter Taylor » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:57 am

MrBenn wrote:How much does GLoS charge each of it's lodges?

Sent you a PM.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:48 pm

David H wrote:During this year I have been a member of 2 lodges - an UGLE one and a GLoS one. Both of them are regularly initiating new members. My subscription in Scotland for this year was £30 and has not changed for several years. My subscription for England was £144 this year following a hefty increase last year. Next year the subscription is to be increased by a further 17%!

A very large part of the subscription for that UGLE lodge is the exorbitant charges for the use of an unnecessarily large building. When that building was bought in 1970, there were 414 craft masons using it, rising to a high of 463 in 1982. The figures for the end of 2015 (the latest I have) show there are now 151 craft masons. This lodge has the largest membership and so shoulders the lion's share of the costs. We should have moved out years ago but you know what committees are like!
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:00 pm

Trouillogan wrote:
David H wrote:During this year I have been a member of 2 lodges - an UGLE one and a GLoS one. Both of them are regularly initiating new members. My subscription in Scotland for this year was £30 and has not changed for several years. My subscription for England was £144 this year following a hefty increase last year. Next year the subscription is to be increased by a further 17%!

A very large part of the subscription for that UGLE lodge is the exorbitant charges for the use of an unnecessarily large building. When that building was bought in 1970, there were 414 craft masons using it, rising to a high of 463 in 1982. The figures for the end of 2015 (the latest I have) show there are now 151 craft masons. This lodge has the largest membership and so shoulders the lion's share of the costs. We should have moved out years ago but you know what committees are like!


I guessed that was the reason and I think it is absolutely ridiculous and I am tired of hearing members of so many lodges complain about the way their lodges are run. Yes I do know what committes are like and I worked for a large local authority. The answer is to find some way of better educating the committee or putting in place a better more responsive one.

I believe the cost of using buildings to be the biggest problem besetting Freemasonry down south and to be honest when considering Clerkenwell and MMH the record is appalling. There ARE other options - meanwhile there are charity shops where I live now handing out loaves of bread while we are bombarded with images of oversized cardboard cheques being handed over. That and a levy on subscriptions is not my idea of real charity!
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