Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Lay out any Complaints and suggestions so we can get to grips with them

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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:01 am

russellholland wrote:[
Will putting up the price fix the quality of members? - my response - In my experience probably quite the reverse!

And what are we to do with the current members? - my response - I am afraid we are stuck with them - the good the bad, and the ones who seemingly ignore their obligations while the powers that be turn a blind eye in their Ivory towers unable or unwilling to do anything because of course they have a vested interest in keeping numbers as high as possible so as to ensure that the costs of the bricks and mortar are not such that existing members depart.

Should we only take the new high quality candidates into new high quality lodges? my response - YES reverse the trend and stick to it - it might only take 50 years or so to make things better.

And what should we do with the Grand Lodges that have supervised the decline in quality? my response - I don't think there is anything that can be done as there are far too many people who would not act objectively as they are so beguiled by perceived honours and yards of gold braid. "Turkeys voting for Christmas? I think not. Speaking of Christmas my lodge subscription due shortly before then would pay for the Salvation Army to provide a meal for 35 people who otherwise would be on their own!


If I sound cross that is because I am not long back home from a service on the theme of "A light on Aleppo" where the situation is absolutely heartbreaking and the politicians seem to be incapable of doing anything to ease the plight of the people of Syria, Aleppo and all the other places where there is such devastation, inhumanity and loss of life. Viewed in the context of that, the current problems of Freemasonry are to me trivial nothwithstanding that I believe that Freemasonry at its best can be a wonderful fraternity doing great good in the world (apart from the oversized cardboard cheques and the constant trumpeting of how much money we have given to charities. IMO the best charity is anonymous, and giving money (much of which is given as involuntary levies anyway) is much easier than actually doing something worthwhile.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby MrBenn » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:05 am

I would say they are 'unwilling' as opposed to 'incapable'
Away from the trumpeting and oversized presentation cheques there are many individual masons, across the face of the earth, who are putting practical relief into the Syrian situation - in that anonymous fashion
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:15 am

Charity is a wonderful practice but Masonry has that in common with thousands of other organisations. I think if Masonry is to be reformed then we need to find some more specific to Masonry. I suggest Masonic Science.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:19 am

MrBenn wrote:I would say they are 'unwilling' as opposed to 'incapable'
Away from the trumpeting and oversized presentation cheques there are many individual masons, across the face of the earth, who are putting practical relief into the Syrian situation - in that anonymous fashion


Both excellent points - thank you very much for your post.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:11 am

russellholland wrote:Charity is a wonderful practice but Masonry has that in common with thousands of other organisations. I think if Masonry is to be reformed then we need to find some more specific to Masonry. I suggest Masonic Science.


I think Masonic Science is a very good suggestion. As said Masonry has charity is common "with thousands of other organisations" and also looser groupings and individuals. Most non Masons I have spoken to have in general terms a quite favourable impression of the fraternity which makes the current situation all the more regrettable.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Langfordman » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:08 pm

There is generally a long term decline in English-speaking Freemasonry. If this were a commercial product then we would repackage and re-brand it and hope that it sold for a bit longer. Grand Lodges get in consultants to do this but it is a sign of a product at the end of its life. Re-branding does not keep the customers returning year after year. At best it picks up casual shoppers.

The usual option presented is to go for quality. But how is this to proceed?

Will putting up the price fix the quality of members?

And what are we to do with the current members?

Should we only take the new high quality candidates into new high quality lodges?

And what should we do with the Grand Lodges that have supervised the decline in quality?


In trying to raise the profile of masonry, we have the university scheme which is a way of fast tracking potential members to be our future leaders, which has nothing to do with freemasonry at grass routes, which is were I am at. I don't care about what rite is better whether it is Scottish, York or any other what is important is the members. How the lodges treats it members and tries to retain them. I feel we fall down big time on this, for example A brother resigned from his mother lodge as he wanted to go on to the chair but the lodge elders said no because he was not good at ritual. In his new lodge he put the effort in and made it to the chair. His mother lodge not knowing he made it to the chair sent a summons to the new worshipful of the lodge, the brother in question excepted the invitation. When the mother lodge found out it was their old member they withdrew the invite. I can relate more stories of a similar nature and until we get the basic right, and stop these things from happening we will have happy lodges and retain it members.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:51 pm

"we have the university scheme which is a way of fast tracking potential members to be our future leaders"

Really?
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby eckywan2 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:09 pm

right again David
Our only Uni lodge in Scotland is a failure
but will supply figures to prove its success
of so many candidates ( mostly non treturning already
whilst they failed to revive a good old lodge and simply replace it
with something very strange
our GM is due to visit soon and will no doubt be told everything in the garden is rosy

Davis your input is always so succinct while I blether too much !
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:38 pm

Likewise: 'we have the university scheme which is a way of fast tracking potential members to be our future leaders'.

Being the instigator of one of my Lodges coming onto the Universities Scheme, I don't see it like that at all. I only see it as a 'taster' drawing from what might once have been a somewhat select pool - no longer though, unfortunately! At best I see it as a form of altruism that introduces youngsters who will, of course, leave but those really interested may return to Freemasonry during later life when they have settled their domestic and career arrangements.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:57 pm

Trouillogan wrote: those really interested may return to Freemasonry during later life when they have settled their domestic and career arrangements.


Or even join in later life for precisely those reasons BUT with an ageing population UGLE has I am informed decided to ignore targeting older people which to me is completely counter intuitive. I also object to the amount of cash (some of it mine) which my Lodge is spending on the "scheme" whilst effectively forcing me to subsidise these candidates with reduced subscriptions.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:24 pm

David H wrote:
Trouillogan wrote: those really interested may return to Freemasonry during later life when they have settled their domestic and career arrangements.


Or even join in later life for precisely those reasons BUT with an ageing population UGLE has I am informed decided to ignore targeting older people which to me is completely counter intuitive. I also object to the amount of cash (some of it mine) which my Lodge is spending on the "scheme" whilst effectively forcing me to subsidise these candidates with reduced subscriptions.

You do have a couple of points there David. It is still fairly experimental, as the long term (possibly generational) effects have yet to be seen, either at Lodge level or in the wider Masonic world. I'm hoping that the universities pool in which the fishing is being done brings in a better quality than heretofore. If I thought it would only bring in numbers, I'd be set firmly against the Scheme but I do see some hope in this - not much but some. The ends for which I hope, do depend largely on proper Masonic education and at the moment that is likely to be provided by the present population, many of whom appear to have little interest in the intricacies of Freemasonry.

As to the discounted fees for under 25s, I think you will find that discount to have a miniscule effect on UGLEs total income and Lodges are simply passing that on, so there's no reduction in Lodge income on that score. If a Lodge were to decide to redice the dining fees for under 25s then that would be a Lodge decision.

Even though the Scheme in its present form has been going for over ten years now, the eggs are yet to hatch as far as those who have dropped out of Masonry are concerned and are setting up their lives. Those who come back will do so because they found something that chimes with their character and they will be the ones to tell us that the Scheme is attractive to men of quality.

I'm by no means convinced but let's give the Scheme a chance to prove itself.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:20 am

Personally I think that Masonry often disappoints - even those who have been active for more than 30 years.

I think the quality of the product offered is greatly deficient.

Since Masonry is a science then its secrets may be independently discovered by any suitable person. According to English-speaking Grand Lodges this has not occurred in 300 years. Indeed I have not even seen a GL attempt the recovery.

Why should any high quality candidate wish to join under such a situation?
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:09 am

I don't think of Freemasonry as a product, quite the opposite; to me it is an ethos, a wonderful fraternity. I have frequently been very disappointed, not by Freemasonry, but by a minority of people within it who act in a manner which runs completely contrary to the obligations they made while their Lodges and Grand Lodges completely wash their hands of such behaviour in what I consider to be a shameful manner. Furthermore simple administration in some Lodges is in my experience absolutely shameful. High quality candidates (what constitutes quality is of course a matter of opinion and from observation peoples opinion varies widely - in my experience it has no correlation to money or education but rather humanity) should and will come forward if after careful consideration they glimpse in Freemasonry something which resonates with their feelings and hopefully has less so called "branding" and "focus groups" (by whatever name they masquerade).
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:32 pm

russellholland wrote:Personally I think that Masonry often disappoints - even those who have been active for more than 30 years.

I think the quality of the product offered is greatly deficient.

Since Masonry is a science then its secrets may be independently discovered by any suitable person. According to English-speaking Grand Lodges this has not occurred in 300 years. Indeed I have not even seen a GL attempt the recovery.

Why should any high quality candidate wish to join under such a situation?

Russel, I would amend your first sentence by replacing your word 'even' by 'especially'. The degrading we have seen over the long term appear to me to have been instigated from without our institution. The weakness of the upper echelons in failing to resist those pressures effectively has time and again evidentially allowed and even encouraged the corporatisation of our once great fraternity and its core values.

If you use the word 'science' in its modern interpretation then you might right - partly but that word should properly be used in its eighteenth century context using the then meaning of 'knowledge generally'. In that same context we find the word 'nature' which today carries meanings that often differ from that originally intended - i.e. 'character', to which study will provide an even deeper import.

The fraternity does not offer any 'product' (despite the lapel pins, bumper stickers and tee shirts) nor any 'secrets'; it never has, beyond the personal experience unique to each one of us. I would further strongly argue that the quality and life changing effect of that experience is in direct proportion to the qualities of the member and his appreciation thereof.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:54 pm

Trouillogan wrote:..
If you use the word 'science' in its modern interpretation then you might right - partly but that word should properly be used in its eighteenth century context using the then meaning of 'knowledge generally'. ..


That is a common assertion but I suspect that the best brethren pre-1717 were scientists in the modern meaning.

For example Isaac Newton wrote more about the perfecting of matter than about mathematics.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/book_bauer.html

The perfecting of matter is (slightly) concealed in the 18th degree.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:46 pm

It surprises many that Isaac Newton was quite deeply involved in alchemy as a regular part of his studies. Through, from the seventeeth century, his and the Royal Society as well as at Oxford experiment-based scientific studies (as distinct from dogma) of what was then called natural philosophy eventually branched out into the separate sciences as we have come to regard them, during the nineteenth century. Until then, there was no division; it was all 'science'. Those people were, in our eyes polymaths and the 'science' of the eighteenth century was very broad and all-encompassing. It was not until somewhat later towards the end of that century that the idea of the seven liberal arts and sciences being separate branches came into vogue. We were (and are) encouraged to study such of them, as a group, as lie within our attainment. That is in order that we can become roundly educated with at least an appreciation of their interactions.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:17 am

Trouillogan wrote:...the seven liberal arts and sciences being separate branches came into vogue. We were (and are) encouraged to study ..That is in order that we can become roundly educated with at least an appreciation of their interactions.


In my view the reason for studying the 7 liberal arts and sciences is that any of them can serve as an entry to the hidden mysteries of nature and science - the study of which is the work of the FC.

For example music and dance have traditionally been used to induce transcendental consciousness. Transcendental consciousness enables observation of the hidden workings of nature.

Here is a dissertation on " the nature and qualities of altered experience found in dance and dancing, and how the dimension of experience can be fostered in the pedagogical context of the modern dance class." https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/han ... sequence=1

And through the practice of rhetoric we can learn when words have weight - thus learning creation through sound - in the beginning was the word.

But who in modern Masonry even attempts such entries?
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:54 pm

Probably not many these days, Russell, probably not many!
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:04 pm

Masonry being a science, any worthy man or woman, whether or not a Freemason, may approach the genuine secrets.

However, since so few brethren attempt the work of the FC it must be no surprise that the genuine secrets have yet to be recovered by any GL.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby MrBenn » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:45 pm

"we have the university scheme which is a way of fast tracking potential members to be our future leaders"




Errr, no - thats not the point of the scheme at all
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