Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Lay out any Complaints and suggestions so we can get to grips with them

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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Richard George » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:14 am

stedav53 wrote:Many times she has said "its a great pity you dont allow women in your Lodge... sounds like some
of the "old farts" need a kick up the bum"! You know something... she was right.


Sounds to me that you haven't bothered to tell her about the Women's (Grand) Lodges and that if she's interested she's welcome to join them. She'd then find that the vast majority of their members' partners are members of our Fraternity - and that they also don't want mixed lodges. So who's failing here?
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby stedav53 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:04 pm

Richard George wrote:
stedav53 wrote:Many times she has said "its a great pity you dont allow women in your Lodge... sounds like some
of the "old farts" need a kick up the bum"! You know something... she was right.


Sounds to me that you haven't bothered to tell her about the Women's (Grand) Lodges and that if she's interested she's welcome to join them. She'd then find that the vast majority of their members' partners are members of our Fraternity - and that they also don't want mixed lodges. So who's failing here?


I dont think "Anyone's Failing" here, and even old farts like myself (im 63) can recognise Change is coming.. and it is Coming!!!
All will be swept away into a sea of insignificance. Freemasonry has to change otherwise it will die. At the moment its become dogmatic, and is a corpse of its former glory. Why a corpse... because its failed to realise times have changed. People no longer require to "gather" as they did in say the early 20th century, people have new communications, if they want something - they find it on the mobile telephone or web. Its also time for new Rituals... but I wont go down that route at the moment, as I know people want to keep their hair on for Christmas. (15)

Seasons greetings to all Brethren!

S & F
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Richard George » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:22 pm

I'm 60 - and you're missing the point. MIXED lodges are already catered for - as are women's lodge and men's lodges. Why on earth therefore should WE change just because a minority want to? If you want mixed lodges, then resign from mens' Freemasonry and join the version that already caters for it. The fact that there are multiple versions of Freemasonry means that everyone's preference is already catered for!

EDIT: Just realised you are a new MM and as such may not be fully aware of the womens' lodges and the mixed lodges.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby stedav53 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:03 pm

Richard George wrote:I'm 60 - and you're missing the point. MIXED lodges are already catered for - as are women's lodge and men's lodges. Why on earth therefore should WE change just because a minority want to? If you want mixed lodges, then resign from mens' Freemasonry and join the version that already caters for it. The fact that there are multiple versions of Freemasonry means that everyone's preference is already catered for!

EDIT: Just realised you are a new MM and as such may not be fully aware of the womens' lodges and the mixed lodges.


I would say I am "partially aware", but alot of orangisations seem to be dying a very slow death (including I suspect the womens and mixed).
Sign of the times perhaps.

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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Richard George » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:46 pm

As a former ProvAGSec who dealt will joining inquiries, I know I passed on quite a few to the local ladies lodge - and knowing a number of members (even though my wife isn't) I do know that they're surviving quite well. We don't have any mixed lodges locally, and I've never been aware of any interest in any such locally. Our version is surviving quite happily; my Province's had over 40 initiates across 29 lodges.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby stedav53 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:27 pm

Interesting quote from the Fire Brigade Union (15th Nov 2017)

"“We also have grave concerns that the donation in question has come from an organisation that disbars women from joining – a deeply offensive practice that needs to come to an end.”

https://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2017/11/15/ ... re-brigade

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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Richard George » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:19 pm

Fine. If they don't want the money there are plenty of other worthwhile organizations that can use it. I'm won't lose any sleep over their short sightedness.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:46 pm

>Why on earth therefore should WE change just because a minority want to?

And there we could potentially have a problem. It is twofold:

- is the majority the best indicator of what is right?
- does Freemasonry have a function in the temple that extends from E to W, N to S and from the center of the Earth to the Heavens? If it does, can that function be carried out by single sex groups?
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Richard George » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:16 am

<sigh> like I said, if you don't like our version of freemasonry, go join the version that suits you.
Had enough of this thread, its going round in circles. Would there was a function to ignore threads like there is for individuals.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby stedav53 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:16 am

Richard George wrote:<sigh> like I said, if you don't like our version of freemasonry, go join the version that suits you. ...
Had enough of this thread, its going round in circles. Would there was a function to ignore threads like there is for individuals.


I will certainly go do that.
Cheerio.

Moderator, please delete my account. Thank you.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Peter Taylor » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:47 am

stedav53 wrote:Interesting quote from the Fire Brigade Union (15th Nov 2017)

"“We also have grave concerns that the donation in question has come from an organisation that disbars women from joining – a deeply offensive practice that needs to come to an end.”

https://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2017/11/15/ ... re-brigade

S & F
Stephen


Not the best example IMHO. There are loads of organisations out there tat won't accept our help because of their ignorance. There are newspapers that won't print articles on Masonry, but will still take our money for advertising; there are politicians that are anti-Masonry etc... the list is endless.

A pity you chose the Fire Service, which in itself has an organisation that only admits women! A little research is needed Bro!
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby kimosabe » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:24 pm

Thankfully, unlike those of you who appear to be locked into a dogmatically fuelled logical cul-de-sac, I do see Freemasonry changing. Yes, I know you'd dearly like anyone who doesn't share your 'men-only' view of Freemasonry or anyone so "ignorant" that they don't accept money from a Men only social club, to chuck in the towel and join something else but let's assume that every time this sort of thing happened, the person in question did exactly that. Didn't challenge. Quit. Left. Resigned. You total idiots!

You old farts (I'm still in my mid 40s. For some of you, that was in the 1970s) swan about being all superiorly ranked and with all the blunderbuss nonsense and bluster of General Melchett (a hilariously out of touch character from a late 20th century TV show named 'Blackadder') and when you encounter a young Mason who doesn't think like you, your best rejoinder is that they leave Masonry altogether and go elsewhere, where their 'bizarre' new ideas might be accepted. You don't see any logical fallacy in that? You refuse to think or consider and demand that they stop?!

YOU are the problem with Freemasonry in the 21st Century, not the cure! The cure for any organisation that is clearly faltering, is modernisation and that can only happen with new ideas, members under retirement age and a willingness to change. The reason Freemasonry is dying is because of it's members who refuse to change anything.

You had better think long and hard about this, because you just blew yet another opportunity of practising towards him, that virtue you profess to admire. I pity you!

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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Richard George » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:04 pm

Oh don't be ridiculous. He - and you - are complaining that the male version of Freemasonry has no intention of changing to admit women, whilst at the same time blithely ignoring the fact that WOMENS' Freemasonry don't want to admit men, and that there is ALSO a version of Freemasonry that admits men AND women. Thus there's a flavour of Freemasonry to suit all tastes. If you want a mixed version, why complain when you join the male version and then find you can't attend the mixed version and that the male version wants to remain as such - just as the female version wants to remain single-sex. Where I have a problem is when you seem to be insisting that the majority change to suit you and then insulting people because they're not agreeing with you. And then, to cap it all, to be saying "look this is what happens when you don't admit the other sex". Would you have posted the same thing if the FB had rejected a donation from one of the women's Grand Lodges? - probably not.

It's just common sense to recommend resigning from the version that you're unhappy with and join the version that fits what you want.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:57 pm

If Freemasonry is a social club with ritual pretensions then it hardly matters whether it is based on single sex groups and Judaic traditions.

If on the other hand the GAOTU has an interest in humans responsibly operating the temple that extends from E to W etc, then perhaps there is more in Freemasonry than meets the eye.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Maku » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:56 pm

Improving Freemasonry is good, but we should be talking about how to make addition changes towards it and not changing it's core nature.

Being a male only fraternity or Brotherhood is one of the main characteristics of FM, many of us joined partially because of that. Imagine someone go and join the Boy Scout, knowing that it is an organisation for male and then start complaining that Boy Scout should consider making changes and start accepting girls? Clearly, Boy Scout is not for these people....

I was having a similar discussion with one of our Brethren not long ago and I asked him what if they start allowing female in FM and would you want to bring your missus along? He said " In that case I'd rather stay home and she can come along, the whole point of joining FM is to have some private time away from home once a month and spend an evening with the boys..."

I joined FM in my 30s and I am in my early 40s, many other Brethren joined FM because of it's tradition, Victorian style ritual and at the same time charity and a boys night out. If you start changing all these core features, I might as well go and join Rotary....
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:44 pm

>complaining that Boy Scout should consider making changes and start accepting girls? Clearly, Boy Scout is not for these people

In the US the scouts admit females:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ls/542769/

>many other Brethren joined FM because of it's tradition, Victorian style ritual and at the same time charity and a boys night out. If you start changing all these core features, I might as well go and join Rotary....

Rotary equally has problems with declining membership.

Retaining outdated practices is not a proven means for survival. Still, if Masonry is no more than a moralistic ritual society then it is no great loss.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Stevecoath » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:12 am

There is Freemasonry for men only, there is Freemasonry for women only, there is Freemasonry for both men and women.
What more do people want?
You might as well force the Church of England to open its churches to muslims or Buddhists or demand that catholic mass is celebrated in mosques.
Why do people keep trying to force these things?
Changing the subject slightly I would like to know what would happen if a transgender of gender fluid person wanted to join?
I was asked this recently by an associate who said "why cant I join?, I don't identify as a women"
my only reply was "but you don't identify as a man either".
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:49 am

>There is Freemasonry for men only, there is Freemasonry for women only, there is Freemasonry for both men and women. What more do people want?

It seems to me that such propositions do not consider the nature of Masonic Science.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Nathan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:56 pm

Maku wrote:Improving Freemasonry is good, but we should be talking about how to make addition changes towards it and not changing it's core nature.

Being a male only fraternity or Brotherhood is one of the main characteristics of FM, many of us joined partially because of that. Imagine someone go and join the Boy Scout, knowing that it is an organisation for male and then start complaining that Boy Scout should consider making changes and start accepting girls? Clearly, Boy Scout is not for these people....

I was having a similar discussion with one of our Brethren not long ago and I asked him what if they start allowing female in FM and would you want to bring your missus along? He said " In that case I'd rather stay home and she can come along, the whole point of joining FM is to have some private time away from home once a month and spend an evening with the boys..."

I joined FM in my 30s and I am in my early 40s, many other Brethren joined FM because of it's tradition, Victorian style ritual and at the same time charity and a boys night out. If you start changing all these core features, I might as well go and join Rotary....


The Scouting movement in the UK also admit girls as Scouts, the Guides however do not admit boys. The members of both groups voted and it would seem the boys were far more liberal than the girls (42)
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Nathan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:59 pm

My own views on whether Women should be admitted are rather liberal, id be more than happy for ladies to attend lodge and become masons but i'm not going to leave the fraternity if it doesn't happen. As stated above, there are FM groups catering for both sexes.
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