Freemasonry for the 21st century.

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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby kimosabe » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:54 pm

MrBenn wrote:
kimosabe wrote:
Thus a 'masonic science', to me, is an open study of Masonry whereby or whereon (ahem!) (51) anybody can ask and receive the correct answer to any question. In general, I find that if I generate more questions than there are factual answers available, that there's probably less underlying substance than purported to exist.


What if there isn't a correct answer? After all that is precisely what science is - continually proving people wrong

And it may well be not that there is less substance, just it doesn't fit your preconception


"Continually proving people wrong" - Until they or more accurately their assertions are proved right.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby MrBenn » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:24 pm

Not at all
I don't think science means what you think it does
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby kimosabe » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:09 pm

MrBenn wrote:Not at all
I don't think science means what you think it does


uh huh...
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:37 am

kimosabe wrote:...
Thus a 'masonic science', to me, is an open study of Masonry whereby or whereon (ahem!) (51) anybody can ask and receive the correct answer to any question......


Science is discoverable by observation and experiment but as we know, much scientific knowledge is restricted, including as trade secrets and as military secrets.

For example, consider how many early Moon rockets could not even hit the Moon. Even recently the first Indian Moon shot missed. (There are two secrets there, both about the workings of gravity)

Masonic Science, being a science, is open to any person, male or female, that is sufficiently developed morally (spiritually) to be admitted to the hidden mysteries of nature and science.

In every generation there are quite a few admitted to aspects of what we call Masonic Science, but being wise they say little about what they know and do.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby kimosabe » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:15 pm

This rhetoric is the equivalent of showing a 10 year old with an e-black belt in Minecraft, a steam-driven Victorian merry-go-round and expecting them to be dumbstruck by it, in the same way as Victorian children would have been dumbstruck had they seen Minecraft in 3D. Seriously? You really go for the whole 'we know something nobody else can know' thing?

I think it worth mentioning, with all respect, that the title states 'Freemasonry for the 21st century', so shall we stop collectively pretending we're all moustachioed Edwardian gentlemen who arrived here by hot air balloon and deal with the distinct possibility that Freemasonry needs to be updated, particularly with regard to the way some people relate to it and that any semblance of 'hidden mystery' vanished at precisely the same time as Google and Youtube arrived?

I feel a lot like Ford Prefect in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Just thought i'd say that.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:38 pm

kimosabe wrote:... any semblance of 'hidden mystery' vanished at precisely the same time as Google and Youtube arrived.


Recently I was speaking to an aboriginal that had been initiated by some of his tribe's elders. He was explaining to me how he approached a particular sacred site. He said he had to alert the local spirits and he showed me how he did this. He stamped on the ground with a rhythm that I immediately recognized from Masonry.

I was not surprised as I was already aware that the various rhythmic knocks in Masonry relate to different targets.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby kimosabe » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:09 pm

This thread has had, at the time of writing, nearly 7800 views. That makes it relatively important but for such an important topic (and I claim no fame for asking it), what answers have been forthcoming so far?

Perhaps Freemasonry requires a new mission statement with carefully monitored outcomes, in order to steer it in a new direction; one which matches modern society? Transparency and Openness to show how proud we are to be who we are? Rhetoric or reality?

Playing about with the idea that everything in masonic rituals is unknown, except to those who have joined a lodge, is futile. My feelings are that it's high time the entire organisation asked it's members whether they want to have an open door policy to prospective new members or not. Lodge by lodge. It may well be that some lodges will and that some won't but to work under the assumption that closed doors equals zero prior knowledge, is fallacious.

Just a thought.

Be well all.

K
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:45 pm

>whether they want to have an open door policy to prospective new members or not.

This is an interesting question. In my view it revolves around whether inner/energy/spiritual events occur in the lodge.

In the local 30th degree the candidate is repeatedly told that he faces dangers that he cannot know, but these are never explained.

The same theme appears in the Kabbalah. Of the 4 rabbis that entered Paradise (the walled garden) only one survived.
http://www.matthewkressel.net/2015/09/1 ... -paradise/

In one of our local lodges, during a practice I had various brethren stand under the crossed wands while I watched the blessing of the GAOTU descend. I only let each stand in the flow of Light for a couple of minutes and one I had to pull out early. Later he commented that he suddenly became quite tired while the others felt energized.

On various occasions as Deacon I have seen the candidate taking the obligation break out into a sweat when all around are cool. This seems to occur when the Light cannot flow smoothly through the body - most often being blocked by the head and/or the heart. The blockages are friction and heat results.

The brother I had to pull out was blocking the Light at the head - perhaps a little opinionated.

It is possible that excessive exposure to some flows of Light may be dangerous psychologically as well as physically.

Long ago I was dealing with a man who had become emotionally unbalanced during an encounter workshop. Without his knowledge a group of people started sending him light. After a few minutes he complained to me that he was being sent light. His problem was that his emotional system was unstable and could not tolerate being stimulated by the light. If the group had sent love then I think the problem would not have occurred. Love integrates while most light pushes forward.

So in my view the problem is: If a lodge is drawing in Light then it is dangerous to those that are not sufficiently refined (moral?) in their personality. If the love is very strong in the lodge then this may reduce the danger.

There may of course be lodges that do not attract much Light so that they operate as social ritual groups.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Stevecoath » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:51 am

I nearly didn't take my Raising due to something similar.
I could not physically cross the threshold due to the oppressive feeling.
immediately after the ceremony one of the older visitors came crashing down the steps and face planted heavily on the chequered pavement and then during the Festive Board one of the senior members suffered a heart attack.
Years later one of the other members confided in me that something "felt odd" in the temple that night.

Conversely, several times I have had a completely different feeling.
If you have ever had a really relaxing massage and afterwards you feel like you are floating in a dream state, wrapped in cotton wool. I have experienced this now several times when conducting ritual when everyone is aligned. On the last occasion this "buzz" lasted for several days.

Unfortunately not every Mason gets to experience this.
If your only experience of masonry is listening to members droning out ritual with no understanding of it, while others sit around having private conversations, then rushing through the ceremony so as to get to the bar, shovel down food while talking about work and/or football and then leaving to get home before 9pm, then you will probably never understand the hidden mysteries of nature and science.
However once you do experience this you will never be content to be a "knife and fork mason" again.
Masonry is not just your Mother Lodge.
Sometimes you need to go further afield and keep searching but when you find it, then you will know.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:13 am

>I could not physically cross the threshold due to the oppressive feeling.

The Inner Guard is supposed to deal with light weight problems such as astral entities but heavy weight dark entities can approach. I have had that in a meditation group but not in lodge.

> conducting ritual when everyone is aligned. On the last occasion this "buzz" lasted for several days.

I have had a buzz last for a few hours.

>probably never understand the hidden mysteries of nature and science.

On most forums the brethren have no interest and some explain vigorously that the hidden mysteries do not exist. It is as if they are on a mission to discourage such studies.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby kimosabe » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:59 am

russellholland wrote:>I could not physically cross the threshold due to the oppressive feeling.

The Inner Guard is supposed to deal with light weight problems such as astral entities but heavy weight dark entities can approach. I have had that in a meditation group but not in lodge.

> conducting ritual when everyone is aligned. On the last occasion this "buzz" lasted for several days.

I have had a buzz last for a few hours.

>probably never understand the hidden mysteries of nature and science.

On most forums the brethren have no interest and some explain vigorously that the hidden mysteries do not exist. It is as if they are on a mission to discourage such studies.


I would never discourage anyone from exploring real hidden mysteries of nature and science, quite the opposite in fact, but to make equally grand claims about Freemasonry as one might a scientific research project, is disingenuous. That's why people end up researching Freemasonry through the lens of Freemasonry and ask only the permitted questions about it, which aren't those rebuffed and redirected at every opportunity. The same thing happens when people engage in religious studies by cross quoting passages of text from the same religious text book. You have to step outside of it and remove belief and faith to truly comprehend anything of any true value, otherwise all that is happening is confirmation bias.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby David H » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:41 pm

I have absolutely no issue with Freemasonry per se but I do have many issues with the manner in which UGLE Freemasonry is currently organised and administered. I have no idea where you are based but I have been a member of Lodges within UGLE and GloS and have a limited understanding of how the GLOI operates and with great respect I think many of the statements you have made are somewhat at variance with the facts.

You contrast the number of views this topic has had with the comparative paucity of responses. My feeling is that could simply be a response to the large number of points you have made rather than what I might term a measured drip feed of opinions and concerns.

Incidentally I am puzzled by your statement “Freemasonry excludes women, while modern western culture is doing all it can to do the exact opposite. Mixed lodges, Women's lodges and Men's lodges must be created” since all three categories of lodges exist within the UK although the first two are not recognised by any of the Grand Lodges.

I wish you great good luck with your quest. I have sympathy with some of your concerns.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby eckywan2 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:53 pm

Well said David
welcome back !
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:59 pm

Welcome back David.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby kimosabe » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:28 pm

David H wrote:I have absolutely no issue with Freemasonry per se but I do have many issues with the manner in which UGLE Freemasonry is currently organised and administered. I have no idea where you are based but I have been a member of Lodges within UGLE and GloS and have a limited understanding of how the GLOI operates and with great respect I think many of the statements you have made are somewhat at variance with the facts.

You contrast the number of views this topic has had with the comparative paucity of responses. My feeling is that could simply be a response to the large number of points you have made rather than what I might term a measured drip feed of opinions and concerns.

Incidentally I am puzzled by your statement “Freemasonry excludes women, while modern western culture is doing all it can to do the exact opposite. Mixed lodges, Women's lodges and Men's lodges must be created” since all three categories of lodges exist within the UK although the first two are not recognised by any of the Grand Lodges.

I wish you great good luck with your quest. I have sympathy with some of your concerns.


Hello David,

On the whole, my concerns centre around Freemasonry, or more specifically how Grand Lodges move at glacial speeds, being rather similar to a small boat dragging a large anchor. Younger Masons don't experience the World the way our elderly brethren do and it's the latter who call the shots, in the main when it comes down to changing constitutionally.

"Freemasonry excludes women, while modern western culture is doing all it can to do the exact opposite. Mixed lodges, Women's lodges and Men's lodges must be created”
"...since all three categories of lodges exist within the UK although the first two are not recognised by any of the Grand Lodges."

Grand Lodges do not recognise mixed or Women's lodges. When stated within the context of the thread's title "Freemasonry in the 21st century", is this issue not something that should be considered or is Freemasonry going to maintain that only men can be Freemasons, despite society striving to do all it can to destroy the notion that Women cannot do what Men can do and as equals? I'm clearly a 'three-category' Mason.

In a bit of a rush, so I hope this finds you well and I look forward to continuing to explore how 'Freemasonry' can improve.

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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby russellholland » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:30 pm

>Grand Lodges do not recognise mixed or Women's lodges

While the issue of mixed lodges may well be important from the perspective of Masonic Science, in most English-speaking countries the decline in Masonic lodges is likely to make the issue theoretical rather than practical.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:30 am

Well, kimosabe, if you want to join a mixed outfit, join the Droit Humain. I know people who have.

I will say that single gender organisations have the benefit of enabling personal discussions that you could well feel uncomfortable having in mixed company. Men need a men-only space just as women need a women-only space.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby stedav53 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:23 pm

In my opinion... bring in the Women.
I am sure we lose such alot not opening our doors to women, especially as its part of a modern democratic society.
If we dont change, we shall end up like a third-world tin-pot "democracy" that precludes women folk from even the basic rights
of humanity.

If it was'nt for my "other half" I would,nt be a Mason. She helped me through all my degrees, she was there when I had my doubts,
and helped me bounce ideas off. Many times she has said "its a great pity you dont allow women in your Lodge... sounds like some
of the "old farts" need a kick up the bum"! You know something... she was right.

The only time my missus gets to meet my fellow Brethren is like the coming Christmas luncheon, where she and other wives/partners
usually get "shunted" off away from the main table, a case of Seen - but G_d forbid heard. (17)

Its time to get real, and make changes, otherwise Freemasonry will disappear, not totally but it will become a shadow of its former self.
Any organisation thats not fit for the future will eventually die. (1)

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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Trouillogan » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:51 pm

As I've said above, if that's what you want there's an organisation that accepts both sexes, so leave UGLE and go join it. No need to try to make UGLE conform to your wishes; there are many who wouldn't agree with you. Look up co-masonry on Google and the best of good luck in your future endeavours.
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Re: Freemasonry for the 21st century.

Postby Peter Dowling » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:05 am

I am all for equality in sexes in life but love my UGLE male.only lodges. My wife loves equality in life and loves me loving my freemasonry but if women joined my lodge she and myself would not be so happy.
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