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Grand chapters falling out

PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:38 pm
by Multisync
There appears to be some disharmony between the grand chapters of Scotland and Spain.
What's the ramifications of such an event?

Could it lead to further withdrawals of recognition by other grand chapters and grand lodges

Re: Grand chapters falling out

PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:42 pm
by Trouillogan
Not knowing what the 'disharmony' concerns, it's hard to say. But if the matter eventually comes down to regularity and then recognition, the three 'home' Grand Chapters would need to agree on a course of action. Yes, i realise that the Grand Chapter/Grand Lodge arrangements differ somewhat between England, Scotland and Ireland but they would all need to agree. That could then have wider inter-jurisdictional ramifications. Hopefully, whatever it is can be dealt with in discussions.

Re: Grand chapters falling out

PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:26 pm
by YHWH
https://www.diariomasonico.com/english/ ... ally-dead/

"Scotland withdraws its recognition of Spain making the Grand Masters position masonically dead.
It was an open secret, the irresponsible actions of Oscar de Alfonso has born its first consequences outside of Spain.
This is the proof that the Grand Lodge of Spain will lose general recognition if it follows its present course of management.
The worst Winter Solstice that Oscar de Alfonso could have imagined!
It is obvious that the problems are mounting up massively for the Grand Master"

"Scotland remove the recognition of the Grand Chapter of Spain (side order under the Grand Lodge of Spain) after the events of last may when Oscar de Alfonso consecrated a new Grand Chapter in Peru without possessing the necessary powers or qualifications to do so".

Re: Grand chapters falling out

PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:25 pm
by Multisync
Trouillogan wrote:Not knowing what the 'disharmony' concerns, it's hard to say. But if the matter eventually comes down to regularity and then recognition, the three 'home' Grand Chapters would need to agree on a course of action. Yes, i realise that the Grand Chapter/Grand Lodge arrangements differ somewhat between England, Scotland and Ireland but they would all need to agree. That could then have wider inter-jurisdictional ramifications. Hopefully, whatever it is can be dealt with in discussions.


There is a letter circulating regarding the suspension of amity . The talk is Ireland and England will follow suit.
Spain's GM has written a letter to to Scotland outlining his defence but there has been no response as yet (or at least nothing released)
From my understanding Peru is also trying to blame Spain so it's looking increasingly difficult for the GL of E (Spain) to come out of this unscathed.

However if the RA of Scotland suspends amity would the regular GL GL of Scotland normally do the same in time or are their actions totally separate?

Re: Grand chapters falling out

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:31 am
by Trouillogan
Your final question is way above my pay grade! But I would find it hard to understand if the GL wouldn't follow the GC if a full de-recognition occurred.

Re: Grand chapters falling out

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:59 pm
by Richard George
England is a different proposition; SGC don't actually formally recognise any foreign constitution Grand Chapters.

Re: Grand chapters falling out

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:16 am
by Trouillogan
Richard George wrote:England is a different proposition; SGC don't actually formally recognise any foreign constitution Grand Chapters.

That's interesting. I do know about some of the differences but I was not aware of that. How, then are visitors from other RA Constitutions enabled to visit Scottish RA Chapters, always assuming the visitor is already qualified through Mark and 'veils'?

Re: Grand chapters falling out

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:19 pm
by Richard George
-quote-
"The Supreme Grand Chapter of England does not formally recognise other Grand Chapters: it accepts as regular the Companions of another Grand Chapter if it works with the approval of the Grand Lodge whose territory it shares, provided that the Grand Lodge is recognised by the United Grand Lodge of England."
https://www.supremegrandchapter.org.uk/ ... d-chapters

Re: Grand chapters falling out

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:32 pm
by Trouillogan
Richard George wrote:-quote-
"The Supreme Grand Chapter of England does not formally recognise other Grand Chapters: it accepts as regular the Companions of another Grand Chapter if it works with the approval of the Grand Lodge whose territory it shares, provided that the Grand Lodge is recognised by the United Grand Lodge of England."
https://www.supremegrandchapter.org.uk/ ... d-chapters

Apologies - I misread your 'SGC' as Scottish . . . Ridiculous I know! Silly of me.

Re: Grand chapters falling out

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:06 am
by Multisync
Richard George wrote:England is a different proposition; SGC don't actually formally recognise any foreign constitution Grand Chapters.


So SGC won't become involved unless UGLE become involved, and UGLE won't become involved unless GL of Scotland becomes involved..

So some way to go before the UGLE masons in Spain are affected..

Many thanks