Resignation Vs Demit

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Resignation Vs Demit

Postby P471 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:19 pm

Although you have the answer above, it has been mentioned a few times that you don’t need to give a reason for your resignation. This is true but perhaps it would be better for the Lodge to know why.
I know if my Lodge was seeing lots of resignations I’d want to know why and if no one has given a reason then we are none the wiser and more importantly can’t try to rectify the situation. Just my thoughts on that
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:32 am

P471 wrote:Although you have the answer above, it has been mentioned a few times that you don’t need to give a reason for your resignation. This is true but perhaps it would be better for the Lodge to know why.
I know if my Lodge was seeing lots of resignations I’d want to know why and if no one has given a reason then we are none the wiser and more importantly can’t try to rectify the situation. Just my thoughts on that

Indeed, that is quite true. However, in difficult circumstances I've known this to be done separately if he feels he wants to, after all the resignation stuff has been done and the resigner has his clearance in his hand enabling him to join another lodge.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby David H » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:35 am

I have to say that this thread is a very sad and painful to read and I wish the OP all the very best for the future.

Three and a half years ago I moved permanently from Sussex to Scotland – over 600 miles away, and due to age and mobility problems have not been back down south, and am unlikely to do so.

I had hoped to remain an active Freemason for the rest of my life but subscriptions rising at an alarming annual rate forced me to consider the best way forward. It wasn’t that I could not afford the subscription but, and I realise this may sound ridiculous to some, I couldn’t in all conscience justify continuing to pay such a large sum for what was effectively only notional membership of my Lodge when the Church I attend is the base for a Food Bank four days a week and I actively support that initiative in various ways.

Sadly the Lodge does not have a Country membership and I knew that when I joined but I had no idea how awful things are for so many people up here. I therefore took the very tough decision to resign in good standing. I contacted the Secretary who was extremely kind and considerate and with great regret I reluctantly sent a resignation letter last December which brought a typically kind and timely response from which I quote “It is always a shame when a Brother resigns but I fully understand your reasoning and will advise the brethren at our meeting on 5th January 2017. If you are ever in the area in future the Lodge would be delighted to see you at one of our meetings. I and the Lodge wish you and your family a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year. Very best fraternal wishes for the future.”

I did not receive a Clearance Certificate as such and assumed that one would be readily forthcoming should I wish to join another Lodge. I hope I was not wrong in making that assumption. I resigned with great reluctance and regret and have spent a great part of the subsequent year wondering what if anything I should do as it feels much more odd and unsatisfactory than I would have imagined to be unattached. I did consider joining The Internet Lodge but with all due respect to that Lodge it is different in character etc to what I had the great pleasure of experiencing in the past. It is a problem I cannot resolve.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Richard George » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:15 am

One of the problems in not obtaining a clearance certificate when you leave it that if there is some considerable time between leaving and joining another lodge, secretaries and treasurers change and their successors may not know you and you then get a problem in obtaining the necessary documentation. It gets worse if you owe monies, as invariably there is a time difference and there's a distinct possibility that you will end up paying a lot more than you actually owe.

The moral therefore, is to ensure you resign in good standing and get a clearance certificate when you leave. The BoC states you are entitled to one.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Stevecoath » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:31 am

While we are the subject of clearance certificates and owing money, what happens when a member is excluded for non payment (despite repeated requests and broken promises to pay) and you later find they have joined another Lodge in a different Province?

I am aware of this happening quite recently in regards of 3 individuals who were later seen to be members of a London Lodge.

I do not have my Book of Constitutions handy but others have suggested the correct course of action is to contact the Secretary of the receiving Lodge to inform them that they are now responsible to payment of the members outstanding dues owing to the fact they did not carry out the correct procedure.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:00 am

Stevecoath wrote:While we are the subject of clearance certificates and owing money, what happens when a member is excluded for non payment (despite repeated requests and broken promises to pay) and you later find they have joined another Lodge in a different Province?

I am aware of this happening quite recently in regards of 3 individuals who were later seen to be members of a London Lodge.

I do not have my Book of Constitutions handy but others have suggested the correct course of action is to contact the Secretary of the receiving Lodge to inform them that they are now responsible to payment of the members outstanding dues owing to the fact they did not carry out the correct procedure.

Steve, I'm pretty sure the Adelphi system would pick up on that nowadays. In the past, it could happen quite easily.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Stevecoath » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:05 am

Im sure you are right. These members left about 2010 and were spotted in 2014
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:21 am

David H wrote:I did not receive a Clearance Certificate as such and assumed that one would be readily forthcoming should I wish to join another Lodge. I hope I was not wrong in making that assumption. I resigned with great reluctance and regret and have spent a great part of the subsequent year wondering what if anything I should do as it feels much more odd and unsatisfactory than I would have imagined to be unattached. I did consider joining The Internet Lodge but with all due respect to that Lodge it is different in character etc to what I had the great pleasure of experiencing in the past. It is a problem I cannot resolve.

David, just ask for a clearance certificate and it will be sent. The secretary's e-mail address is unchanged and is on the lodge web site (bottom of the home page). Were I still secretary at the time of your resignation, I would have sent you one automatically. Different secretaries work in different ways! And it is a good plan to get one now, while those who remember you are still around!!

Yes, Internet Lodge is really an international research lodge and so is different from many others in that degree work is hardly ever performed. Once you have your clearance, it will be easier for you to visit lodges in your area. I thoroughly laud your efforts with the food bank and would suggest that you mention that aspect when looking for a lodge. I know of several lodges here that regularly support local food banks, so that is something you might be able to introduce, or might already be an activity. Sadly not all lodges would go with you but I feel sure one or two would and those could well be lodges where you could feel comfortable.

Every best wish to you and Gill.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:56 pm

Richard George wrote:There is a form - but it's only for those wishing to resign from Freemasonry. That's obtained via the Provincial Secretary direct. But working on the assumption you're only resigning from the lodge, it's just a letter bearing your signature stating you are resigning as of such and such as date (can be in the future - eg. last day of the lodge's financial year and before the next year's subs are due). As Trouillogan said, you don't need to give any reason why you are resigning.


I think it best I keep it straight and simple, a quick letter to the lodge secretary, and hopefully that's that.
I was going to resign next year before the new financial year, but I've just found out that I've been removed
from my lodges mailing list.

I found out by chance as a brother asked me if I was attending the xmas social festivities etc - I said I had no idea of dates and such.
He then forwarded me a copy of the invite, and after looking in the "CC" section of the email, I found all the subscribing members
email addresses except my own - which for some reason had become omitted. I phoned up the lodge secretary who informed me
their was a glitch on his PC, and that it would be rectified asap.

Maybe so, but apparent I've also been omitted from several other December "Get togethers" . I now realise I must
resign and resign quickly, if only for my own sanity. I really am too old for silly games.

As Trouillgan stated earlier in this section, occassionally things like this do happen, but thankfully they are rare.
Thanks for all your comments. I really do appreciate the advice given.

Hopefully, I can now contribute something more joyful to this forum! (44)

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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Richard George » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:19 pm

Stevecoath; I can answer your question (I'm a former ProvAGSec) but I'm pushed for time atm. Will reply in details this evening once the rush has subsided (school run and then keeper academy coaching for the eldest!)
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby eckywan2 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:41 pm

David nice to see you on here again
You have already been through the mill trying to sort out ure membership situation
as Toulli and I know
but whatever / whenever you will always be welcome to my mothers !
TGIF
( got grandkids here at mo so brief )
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:55 pm

P471 wrote:Although you have the answer above, it has been mentioned a few times that you don’t need to give a reason for your resignation. This is true but perhaps it would be better for the Lodge to know why.
I know if my Lodge was seeing lots of resignations I’d want to know why and if no one has given a reason then we are none the wiser and more importantly can’t try to rectify the situation. Just my thoughts on that


I have spoken with a brother who resigned from his Mother lodge about 5-6 years ago.
He became "unattached" for a few years, then he found a lodge he wanted to join.
The secretary of that lodge contacted the lodge he (the Brother) had resigned from,
and duly requested a copy of the original resignation letter. As it happens, his resignation
was polite (and to the point) with no blame attached to anyone.

In IMHO I think the bare basics of "I Resign" are enough, without going into the Why’s and Who’s and Wherefores…
Such additional information as to why, would only cause bad feeling and maybe set brother against brother, and not forgetting the
possibility of such remarks coming back to haunt at a much later date.
This would only re-ignite alot of bad feelings, and would not serve the interests of anyone concerned.

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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Richard George » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:26 pm

Re resigning and joining elsewhere (stevecoath'question).
First, if someone joins elsewhere whilst still a member but owing monies, he can do so and the lodge his joining is not liable - he's still a member of the lodge. The issue comes when he joins elsewhere and has resigned or been excluded owing money. In this case the lodge he is joining becomes liable for the outstanding amount. Secretaries are supposed to get clearance certificates from every lodge but not all do, or applications have been known to be missing lodges that are owed money. This becomes (or should if the Province is on the ball) obvious when the new membership is preregistered. Whenever I came across the situation (and I did!) I'd contact the secretary and point out the deficiency and refuse the registration until the secretary had spoken to the individual and the problem was rectified. You'd be surprised at the number of people that think they can get away with not listing lodges where they owe money not realising it gets checked. I've also had a couple of cases where lodges have been erased (with money owed to them) in which case it was sorted by paying GL two years subs. The worst case was where a member was in arrears with a lodge and excluded (all because of a change in the national currency), but wouldn't tell him how much he owed so he could clear it. Had to get Registration involved in that one!
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Peter Taylor » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:29 am

Richard George wrote:Re resigning and joining elsewhere (stevecoath'question).
First, if someone joins elsewhere whilst still a member but owing monies, he can do so and the lodge his joining is not liable - he's still a member of the lodge. The issue comes when he joins elsewhere and has resigned or been excluded owing money. In this case the lodge he is joining becomes liable for the outstanding amount. Secretaries are supposed to get clearance certificates from every lodge but not all do, or applications have been known to be missing lodges that are owed money. This becomes (or should if the Province is on the ball) obvious when the new membership is preregistered. Whenever I came across the situation (and I did!) I'd contact the secretary and point out the deficiency and refuse the registration until the secretary had spoken to the individual and the problem was rectified. You'd be surprised at the number of people that think they can get away with not listing lodges where they owe money not realising it gets checked. I've also had a couple of cases where lodges have been erased (with money owed to them) in which case it was sorted by paying GL two years subs. The worst case was where a member was in arrears with a lodge and excluded (all because of a change in the national currency), but wouldn't tell him how much he owed so he could clear it. Had to get Registration involved in that one!


Totally different in Scotland. A Brother who "is owing monies" say, to his Mother Lodge, (ie not in Good Standing for 2 years) is not allowed to visit ant other Lodges at all. In fact he is only allowed then to visit his Mother Lodge if he is there to pay his dues. He can't join another Lodge unless he is in Good Standing with every Lodge of which he is a member.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby eckywan2 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:01 am

and not only our lodges ...
every brother in Scotland must be in test with ALL "masonic" groups he is in
ie RAC KT etc etc
Its only usually a subject that comes up at elections when all office bearers have to be in test before installation.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Peter Taylor » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:53 pm

eckywan2 wrote:and not only our lodges ...
every brother in Scotland must be in test with ALL "masonic" groups he is in
ie RAC KT etc etc
Its only usually a subject that comes up at elections when all office bearers have to be in test before installation.

Indeed, but not being in good standing, say in the Chapter, doesn't stop me from attending my Lodge(s).
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby kimosabe » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:13 pm

Hi Bob,

I hope this reaches you before you have signed any paperwork.

I'm very sorry to hear your situation is affecting you so badly. It isn't uncommon and over the time I have been a Mason, I have seen the damage Lodge politics can do to people and membership. This appears to be more about how your lodge's members behave, than any difficulties you might be experiencing with Freemasonry as a whole; two very different animals.

However, i'm sure you have carefully considered your options and I can see that the replies on this forum have been accurate but I have a question for you. As this appears to be about the lodge you are a member of and not Freemasonry in general, why don't you join another lodge? I can't imagine a lodge turning away a joining member who is so keen to be a Mason and it would be a great way for you to leave all the cr*p behind and continue elsewhere. You owe it to yourself to explore this possibility, than you do to any lodge, so I hope you are able to give yourself enough time to stop letting it get you down and to move on.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you well.

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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:25 pm

kimosabe wrote:Hi Bob,

I hope this reaches you before you have signed any paperwork.

I'm very sorry to hear your situation is affecting you so badly. It isn't uncommon and over the time I have been a Mason, I have seen the damage Lodge politics can do to people and membership. This appears to be more about how your lodge's members behave, than any difficulties you might be experiencing with Freemasonry as a whole; two very different animals.

However, i'm sure you have carefully considered your options and I can see that the replies on this forum have been accurate but I have a question for you. As this appears to be about the lodge you are a member of and not Freemasonry in general, why don't you join another lodge? I can't imagine a lodge turning away a joining member who is so keen to be a Mason and it would be a great way for you to leave all the cr*p behind and continue elsewhere. You owe it to yourself to explore this possibility, than you do to any lodge, so I hope you are able to give yourself enough time to stop letting it get you down and to move on.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you well.

Kimosabe


Hello,
Thanks for your input, you are 100% right. This is not about problems with Freemasonry, just the way in which the lodge "operates"
(I use that term loosely - as it seems to exist, rather than operate).
Luckily a few friends have already approached me to make an application to join their lodge. (I have visited it once before, and I was impressed).
So hopefully I shall be free of such things shortly.
Thanks again.

S&F
Bob
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby kimosabe » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:44 pm

Bob, from what you've already voiced here, it seems to me that the decision has been made and that you're now double-checking. What's stopping you from leaving now and regardless of having another lodge to join? I understand if you are now mid-year and need to see the year through due to holding an office but leave you must.

As a matter of courtesy, might I encourage you to state your intention to leave for another Lodge, at the next Loi and in a clear and concise manner. No need to get all heated and stressed, just tell the secretary that you're off to pastures new. Your Secretary will need to send a clearance letter to whichever lodge you next join anyway but at least you won't be resenting being there for any longer than necessary.

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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:45 pm

kimosabe wrote:Bob, from what you've already voiced here, it seems to me that the decision has been made and that you're now double-checking. What's stopping you from leaving now and regardless of having another lodge to join? I understand if you are now mid-year and need to see the year through due to holding an office but leave you must.

As a matter of courtesy, might I encourage you to state your intention to leave for another Lodge, at the next Loi and in a clear and concise manner. No need to get all heated and stressed, just tell the secretary that you're off to pastures new. Your Secretary will need to send a clearance letter to whichever lodge you next join anyway but at least you won't be resenting being there for any longer than necessary.

Kimosabe

A resignation by declaration would have to be done at a regular meeting of the lodge, not in a lodge of instruction. Even to mention it at a lodge of instruction could very easily cause confusion, which is the last thing needed. For avoidance of all doubt, a simple written resignation, as I've mentioned above, is undoubtedly the safer option for all concerned. If the lodge's subscription year starts on 1st January, you'd better do it right now!
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