Resignation Vs Demit

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Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:13 pm

Greeting All,

My lodge has changed beyond recognition, mainly due to a number of deaths, and a couple of resignations. Its become somewhat cliquey lately, and
theres alot of gossiping, and there seems to be internal power struggles which I have spoken out against, but now find myself somewhat an "outcast".

Ritual has gone out of the window, the lodge gets opened, mintues read, apologies made, notices from GL, PGL, given, and lodge closed.
(bang/bang/bang) Done and dusted in 12-15 minutes.

This whole situation has affected me so much, I just feel sick at the thought of joining another lodge. Im disillusioned with the whole situation. After speaking with
my wife she is in full agreement that I leave. I think she has seen a change in me over the last year which has not been for the better.

My main intention in posting here is to ask if someone could please give me the full legalistic difference between Demit and Resignation. And perhaps the correct procedures involved. Can I take it as follows:

Demit: To leave a lodge (not freemasonry as a whole)?
Resignation: To leave all of freemasonry?

I wish I had the Wisdom of KS to handle this, but I have,nt. Ive just had enough.
Thank you in advance for your comments.

S&F,
Bob
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:06 pm

Very sorry to hear of the upset within your lodge. The unfortunate situation you describe does occasionally happen but thankfully it is rare. I expect you know brethren in other lodges who would be happy to support your application to join.

'Demit' appears to be a word used mainly in Scottish constitution and its derivatives and it means just the same as 'resignation'. You make the choice of resigning either from a lodge or from the order in its entirety. In the latter case only and only under UGLE you would be required to return your Grand Lodge certificate to UGLE in London. If you are resigning from your lodge, do make sure that your dues are up to date and that you obtain a clearance certificate from the lodge secretary. It will make joining another lodge much easier.

Every good wish for your masonic future.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:15 pm

Hi,
Thank you for a speedy reply and makes things a little clearer with regards to demit.
S&F
Bob
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:29 pm

By the Way, if I demit from my lodge (say end of this month), and I have,nt found a lodge I wish to join (by the time lodge fees are renewable in April 2018)
what happens then. Im really not willing to keep paying my mother lodge fees when I no longer can tolerate the bickering and backbitting.

Do I become a MM without a lodge?, or do I cease to exist as a "legitimate" MM fullstop?
Especially if no fees are being paid to any Lodge body.

Thanks,
S&F
Bob
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Richard George » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:57 pm

If you resign from freemasonry and later wish to rejoin, you would need to start from scratch and go through each of the degrees as you would no longer be a freemason. If you just resign from the lodge, you just become 'unattached' and can visit each and every lodge in the English Constitution once and once only until you join another lodge. You would sign the visitors book and under the lodge name you put 'unattached'.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:48 pm

bonixuk wrote:By the Way, if I demit from my lodge (say end of this month), and I have,nt found a lodge I wish to join (by the time lodge fees are renewable in April 2018)
what happens then. Im really not willing to keep paying my mother lodge fees when I no longer can tolerate the bickering and backbitting.

Do I become a MM without a lodge?, or do I cease to exist as a "legitimate" MM fullstop?
Especially if no fees are being paid to any Lodge body.

Thanks,
S&F
Bob

Well, I don't know which constitution you are in but if it is UGLE then the following would be the situation. Upon resignation from your only lodge you become 'unattached'. That means you are able to visit as many lodges as you like but you are only allowed to visit each lodge once. That sounds a bit harsh but that is the rule (see rule 127 (iii) in the UGLE Book of Constitutions). Also you would need to write 'Unattached' and the name and number of the last lodge of which you were a subscribing member.

If you are not in UGLE then you will need to consult the rules of your own constitution.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:12 pm

Hi,
Yes Im under UGLE.
And I now fully understand the "Unattached" status.

I would be grateful if you could assist me again with the following (especially clarification)

Source: UGL - constitutions 2012
Resignation (183)

"Provided first that if, when the resignation is notified or
communicated to the Lodge as aforesaid, the member be desired
by a majority of members present and voting to withdraw his
resignation, it shall, if with twenty-one days thereafter he
does so withdraw it, be considered cancelled;...
"

S&F
Bob
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:57 pm

bonixuk wrote:Hi,
Yes Im under UGLE.
And I now fully understand the "Unattached" status.

I would be grateful if you could assist me again with the following (especially clarification)

Source: UGL - constitutions 2012
Resignation (183)

"Provided first that if, when the resignation is notified or
communicated to the Lodge as aforesaid, the member be desired
by a majority of members present and voting to withdraw his
resignation, it shall, if with twenty-one days thereafter he
does so withdraw it, be considered cancelled;...
"

S&F
Bob

All this means is that when a brother resigns, the lodge has a certain period in which to try to convince him to withdraw it and so remain a member. That period has recently been increased to 60-days.

By the way, your resignation, unless given verbally in open lodge, must be confirmed in writing and signed by you. Were you to send an e-mail resignation, the secretary would have to receive your confirming letter before the next regular lodge meeting so as to validate the resignation date on the e-mail. If that doesn't happen, the e-mail becomes void and the date of receipt of your letter becomes the resignation date. This date business could become important if your resignation is around the time of subscription renewal. Also, you don't have to give any reason for your resignation if you don't want to.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby admin » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:50 pm

That is just about all you need to know under UGLE

The only point of order would be included in your letter it would be a good idea to ask for a clearance certificate to be sent to you.
It just makes life easier when you may approach another Lodge. They will probably write to confirm anyway, I would if I were the Secretary but you can hand over with your joining form the clearance cert from your previous Lodge. It just confirms you dont owe anything and are in good standing.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:54 pm

A big thank you to one and all for your replies.
You have assisted me greatly, and I appreciated you taking the time to do so.

S&F
Bob
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby admin » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:03 pm

I have to say I have had a similar experience of late with my Mother Lodge. Its no secret that I do not like the path it is going down.

I am viewed these days as a GOB [Grmpy Old Bas/%^$]

Not happy with the Ritual, not happy with moans and groans that they have within their own power to rectify. Not happy with the rush to get to the bar.
Just been to a GP where they all moaned but no one proposed to do anything. I made 5 proposals which cleared up all that was moaned about.

I am told ' we are so busy these days you dont understand modern times' my reply was 'if I can do it , so can you'.

I proved my point by stepping in and giving the second tracing board. It was a bit like Eric Morecombe working all the right words but not neccesarily in the right order. Last done 15 years ago. Mind you I can not remember what happened yesterday.

We are having a white table meeting on the 8th Dec at Upminster. I gave about 5 different options of what could be done. Today is the 22nd Nov. I have received no imformation on any activity for the night. There is no ceremony so what else ? Open, Close, FOOD / BAR ?
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:19 pm

I think theres a general trend just to get into Lodge, get things done and onto the Food/Drink.
Quickest Ive seen opening-closure of lodge has been 10 minutes. No ritual just a quick hymn,
then notices (usually none), then gavel, gavel, gavel - and the race is on to hit the beverages.
Then we spend 3-4 hours of drink-eat-drink, raffle, donations, drink, drink, and done!

Just so disappointing...
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:46 pm

admin wrote:That is just about all you need to know under UGLE

The only point of order would be included in your letter it would be a good idea to ask for a clearance certificate to be sent to you.
It just makes life easier when you may approach another Lodge. They will probably write to confirm anyway, I would if I were the Secretary but you can hand over with your joining form the clearance cert from your previous Lodge. It just confirms you dont owe anything and are in good standing.

Yes, I did mention that in my first response Bill but your reminder is timely.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:57 pm

bonixuk wrote:I think theres a general trend just to get into Lodge, get things done and onto the Food/Drink.
Quickest Ive seen opening-closure of lodge has been 10 minutes. No ritual just a quick hymn,
then notices (usually none), then gavel, gavel, gavel - and the race is on to hit the beverages.
Then we spend 3-4 hours of drink-eat-drink, raffle, donations, drink, drink, and done!

Just so disappointing...

Indeed, Bill and Bonixuk, that I'm sure it's due to the years of accepting members without properly getting to know them. They no longer see the point of freemasonry because they have not developed their original interest. Hence, for a few years now I've gone out speaking and leading discussions in lodges. I'm not a talking head! The attendees are beginning to increase locally, so something is happening. I create fliers for the secretaries to send out to their members and other local lodges. I have arresting titles to grab their interest. I think it's working. I have them contribute to my favourite local charity as well.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Stevecoath » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:21 am

bonixuk wrote:I think theres a general trend just to get into Lodge, get things done and onto the Food/Drink.
Quickest Ive seen opening-closure of lodge has been 10 minutes. No ritual just a quick hymn,
then notices (usually none), then gavel, gavel, gavel - and the race is on to hit the beverages.
Then we spend 3-4 hours of drink-eat-drink, raffle, donations, drink, drink, and done!

Just so disappointing...


Happens in quite a few Lodges.

I once drove 5 hours to a Lodge meeting and we were finished in 9 minutes. You can just guess how happy I was about that.
I have had members say "lets not do the Tracing Board, get through the meeting quickly and then we can spend time in the bar"
My reply is usually "If you want to spend time in the bar with the members why don't you try turning up to LOI every week like one or two of us do"
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:47 pm

Last night I spoke with my lodge secretary about my resignation (demit from lodge). Needless to say he was'nt too pleased (as was to be expected) and when I asked him if there was a "demit" form available - he would not confirm/deny that such a "form" existed. (Like a scene from Apocalypse Now)!

Question 1:
Is a demit form available for English lodges?
If not, does anyone know the correct "format" to be used.
(i. name/address/lodge/date/signature/etc)
A PDF or word document link would be nice :)

Question2:
My lodge fees are due within the first quarter of 2018.
If I resign in January and wish to leave with a certificate (Rule 175)
Can the lodge bring me into "debt" by invoking the following (60-day) option?

Provided first that if, when the resignation is notified or
communicated to the Lodge as aforesaid, the member be desired
by a majority of members present and voting to withdraw his
resignation, it shall, if with twenty-one days thereafter he
does so withdraw it, be considered cancelled;...


(i.e These 21-days (now 60-days) would certainly take me into another renewal.)

Question3:
My lodge secretary seems reluctant to have anything to do with a demit. I strongly suspect he will not issue or he will at least attempt to delay
a certificate being issued. If he fails to issue me a certificate can I obtain such from the (Secretary) PGL?

Once again, many thanks for your assistance.

S&F
Bob
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:27 pm

bonixuk wrote:Last night I spoke with my lodge secretary about my resignation (demit from lodge). Needless to say he was'nt too pleased (as was to be expected) and when I asked him if there was a "demit" form available - he would not confirm/deny that such a "form" existed. (Like a scene from Apocalypse Now)!

Question 1:
Is a demit form available for English lodges?
If not, does anyone know the correct "format" to be used.
(i. name/address/lodge/date/signature/etc)
A PDF or word document link would be nice :)

Question2:
My lodge fees are due within the first quarter of 2018.
If I resign in January and wish to leave with a certificate (Rule 175)
Can the lodge bring me into "debt" by invoking the following (60-day) option?

Provided first that if, when the resignation is notified or
communicated to the Lodge as aforesaid, the member be desired
by a majority of members present and voting to withdraw his
resignation, it shall, if with twenty-one days thereafter he
does so withdraw it, be considered cancelled;...


(i.e These 21-days (now 60-days) would certainly take me into another renewal.)

Question3:
My lodge secretary seems reluctant to have anything to do with a demit. I strongly suspect he will not issue or he will at least attempt to delay
a certificate being issued. If he fails to issue me a certificate can I obtain such from the (Secretary) PGL?

Once again, many thanks for your assistance.

S&F
Bob

In UGLE there is no 'form'. All you need to do is write a letter to the secretary, saying that you are resigning from the lodge with immediate effect (or, if you wish, from some date earlier than the subscription renewal date) and would he please send you your clearance as required by rule 175(i). It is that simple!

As I've said above, there is no need to give any reason. Your resignation is effective on the date the secretary receives your letter, or at a later date if you specify one. The lodge cannot 'bring you into debt' by delaying anything. There is nothing to delay! The lodge does not have to 'accept' your resignation - it is effective immediately. Rule 183 gives the full details. Under rule 183, the lodge has 60 days to plead with you to stay but unless you revoke your resignation, it stands. You don't have to do anything.

Your lodge secretary may not recognise the word 'demit' - it is not used in English freemasonry. 'Resignation' is the word to use - he will understand that! Understandably, a lodge may well be reluctant to lose a member but they can do nothing about it. Delaying a clearance certificate does not affect the date of your resignation. The secretary might well have a complicated 'exit' form to fill in for the province but that need not concern you at all.

If you experience any difficulty in getting your clearance, I would recommend that you ask your Provincial Grand Secretary to intervene and arrange a clearance certificate. Again, you don't need to give any reason for your resignation.
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby bonixuk » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:46 pm

Thank you Trouillogan for an excellent and easy to understand response.
I take it for granted that I should send my resignation into the secretary via
Royal Mail's "signed for" service. (I believe it's the new name for Recorded Delivery).

Many thanks.
S&F
Bob
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Trouillogan » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:52 pm

bonixuk wrote:Thank you Trouillogan for an excellent and easy to understand response.
I take it for granted that I should send my resignation into the secretary via
Royal Mail's "signed for" service. (I believe it's the new name for Recorded Delivery).

Many thanks.
S&F
Bob

That would probably be best, bearing in mind what you have said!
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Re: Resignation Vs Demit

Postby Richard George » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:06 pm

There is a form - but it's only for those wishing to resign from Freemasonry. That's obtained via the Provincial Secretary direct. But working on the assumption you're only resigning from the lodge, it's just a letter bearing your signature stating you are resigning as of such and such as date (can be in the future - eg. last day of the lodge's financial year and before the next year's subs are due). As Trouillogan said, you don't need to give any reason why you are resigning.
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