Were penalties ever at one time included?

Ideas, Information and debate

Moderators: Peter Dowling, Peter Moir, MrBenn, Peter Taylor, JulesTheBit, middlepillar

Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby kimosabe » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:41 pm

We've all read them and said them but have we ever questioned their truth? What are the true origins of the penalties associated with each degree and where did they ever exist?
kimosabe
LRUK Fellow
LRUK  Fellow
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:21 am

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby admin » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:46 pm

It is important to get a feel for the general punishments at the time of the original rituals.

Timeline of punishments

1612. The “Pendle Witches” (eight women and two men) are hanged at Lancaster on the 20th August.
1649. King Charles 1st beheaded in Whitehall for treason on the 30th of January. The only king to be executed in England.
1649. 23 men and one woman executed at Tyburn on the 23rd of June for burglary and robbery requiring eight carts. This was almost certainly the largest number of ordinary criminals put to death in a single execution in Britain.
1671. The Coventry Act made it a capital crime to lie in wait with intent to put out an eye, disable the tongue or slit the nose. It came into being after Sir John Coventry had been attacked in Covent Garden and had his nose slit.
1682. The Bideford Witches, Temperance Lloyd, Susanna Edwards & Mary Trembles were hanged for witchcraft at Heavitree gallows Exeter on the 25th August. These were the last confirmed witchcraft executions in England.
1684. Alice Molland was probably hanged at Heavitree, Exeter for witchcraft, but this cannot be confirmed.
1685. The "Bloody Assizes" began on the 26th August in the aftermath of the Monmouth Rebellion. Some 320 people were executed as a result. The men being mainly hanged, drawn and quartered. The first execution was that of 67 year old Lady Alice Lisle who was beheaded for treason at Winchester on the 2nd of September having been convicted of sheltering two traitors.
1699. The Shoplifting Act defined shoplifting to the value of five shillings (25 pence) as a capital crime.
1706. Abolition of literacy test for Benefit of Clergy.
1712. Jane Wenham becomes the last woman to be condemned for witchcraft in England, at Hertford. She was reprieved.
1713. An Act of Parliament of this year made stealing from a dwelling house in the value of 40 shillings (£2) a capital crime.
1714. The Riot Act is passed, coming into force on the 1st of August 1715. Rioting that caused serious damage to churches, houses, barns and stables was punishable by death.
1718. The Transportation Act allowed the courts to sentence those who had been convicted of offences with benefit of clergy to be transported to America for a period of seven years. It also permitted those found guilty of capital crimes to be pardoned on condition of transportation for 14 years or life. Transportation ceased in 1775 due to the American War of Independence and the number of executions rose sharply during the years from 1775 – 1786.
1723. The Waltham Black Act passed in May made poaching game and damaging forests and parks capital offences. Over the next few years, the wide provisions of the Act increased the number of capital crimes from 30 to 150. These extended to such "appalling crimes" as blacking the face or using a disguise whilst committing a crime.
1727. Janet Horne becomes the last person to be burned at the stake for witchcraft at Dornoch in Scotland.
1736. Witchcraft ceases to be a capital crime in Scotland, by repeal of the Statute of James I of 1604.
1751. Parliament passes an Act “for better preventing the horrid crime of murder” which specified that a person convicted of murder was to be kept in chains and fed on only bread and water and to be hanged within 48 hours, unless that would have been a Sunday in which case the execution was carried out on the following Monday. This Act mandated the dissection or gibbeting of the murderer's body after execution. Gibbeting was not applied to women prisoners. The bodies of murderers were not permitted to be buried in consecrated ground.
1752. The Murder Act, as the 1751 Act became known, came into force on the 1st of June.
1752. On the 22nd of June, 17 year old murderer, Thomas Woolford, became the first person to be hanged (at Tyburn) and then dissected (anatomised) at Surgeon's Hall.
1760. Lawrence Shirley the Fourth Earl of Ferrers is hanged at Tyburn on the 5th of May for the murder of a servant using the "New Drop" for the first time. (The only Peer of the Realm to hang for murder) The "Triple Tree" was removed from Tyburn and replaced with a portable gallows.
1776. Transportation as an alternative punishment is temporarily ended by the American War of Independence. Executions rise considerably as a result.
1783. John Austin becomes the last person to be hanged at Tyburn on the 7th of November for highway robbery.
1783. First hangings outside at Newgate (in the Old Bailey) take place on the 9th of December. Edward Dennis and William Brunskill hanged nine men and a woman at once on the "New Drop." It was quite usual to hang prisoners in large batches at this time, men and women together. The largest number executed in one day was on the 2nd of February 1785 when 20 men were hanged in two batches for a variety of offences, none of them murder.
1784. Mary Bailey becomes the last person to be burned at the stake for the Petty Treason murder of her husband at Winchester on the 8th of March.
1788. Transportation resumes, this time to Australia and is used to commute the death sentence for many capital felonies. In the decade 1784 -1793, there were 434 hangings ordered by the London and Middlesex Sessions (which became the Old Bailey). In the next 10 years, this dropped to 165 and to 119 in the succeeding decade. Over 162,000 people were transported to Australia up to 1868.
1789. The last burning at the stake in England took place at Newgate on the 18th of March when Catherine (given as Catharine in the indictment) Murphy, alias Bowman, was executed for coining (High Treason). (see Burning at the stake)
1790. Burning at the stake for women convicted of High Treason and Petty Treason was abolished by the Treason Act on the 5th of June and replaced by drawing to the place of execution and hanging.
Bill McElligott [PPGASwdB - PPGASoj]
admin@lodgeroomstore.com - skype: lodgeroomint
The Masonic Brotherhood of The Blue Forget-Me-Not

http://lodgeroomstore.co.uk/sales/
http://masonicjewellerystore.com/sales/
http://masonicbookstore.co.uk/store/
http://sell-buy.net/info/
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6907
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:36 pm
Location: Essex, England

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby russellholland » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:56 pm

The earliest reference I have found to having the body cut across and burned to ashes was inflicted upon Apep.

Image


Notice Apep is attached to a tree (of life?)

Apep, in the form of a wax image, was trampled ceremonially under the left foot. Also by the woman in Revelation and by Vishnu

The hare-leopard here is using the right foot to trample Apep. Is the image reversed?


http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoic ... /apep.html
russellholland
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:14 am

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby Lazza21 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:42 pm

To answer the heading question.... Yes the penalties were included in the obligations when I joined back in 1980. There was a variation "ever bearing in mind the traditional penalty etc." But Grand Lodge had them removed and the present system adopted.
Wheatsheaf Lodge No.9445
Clerkenwell Lodge of Installed Masters No.9628
Greenhythe Chapter No.5449
Lazza21
LRUK Super Member
LRUK Super Member
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:34 pm
Location: Meopham, Kent

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby kimosabe » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:46 pm

Perhaps I should have asked "when have the physical penalties of each degree ever physically existed in Freemasonry?".

I'm not suggesting that people and animals haven't been killed for various reasons and/or burned to ashes or that the rewording of rituals hasn't happened, just that i'm curious to know when the alleged penalties actually happened.... in Freemasonry?

Has any Freemason ever been forced to really carry out the physical penalties to the point that GL had to rewrite rituals to say "at one time included in..." in order to stop the slaughter?
kimosabe
LRUK Fellow
LRUK  Fellow
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:21 am

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby Trouillogan » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:46 pm

Of course not.
User avatar
Trouillogan
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 2961
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:19 pm
Location: West Sussex, UK

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby Peter Taylor » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:31 pm

kimosabe wrote: did they ever exist?

No.
Regards, Peter
PM Albert Lochee 448, PM Discovery 1789,:
Honorary, 49, 54, 164, 225, 299, 327, 486, 1220, 1308, SC: PSW 1812, SC, Trinidad: Assoc. 198, Colorado: PPGSec PGL Forfashire.
IPZ RA Chapter Albert 503: RAM, CC: AASR PMWS, 30°: SRIS RWC VII, 8°: ROoS: KT: KTP: RCC: OSM: Squaremen
User avatar
Peter Taylor
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17172
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby russellholland » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:16 pm

The penalties were enforced in the ancient mysteries of which Freemasonry is a modest (or immodest) descendant.
russellholland
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:14 am

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby Lazza21 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:27 am

Ancient mysteries ???
Wheatsheaf Lodge No.9445
Clerkenwell Lodge of Installed Masters No.9628
Greenhythe Chapter No.5449
Lazza21
LRUK Super Member
LRUK Super Member
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:34 pm
Location: Meopham, Kent

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby admin » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:27 am

I was just showing how the inclusion of such a penalty would NOT have been unusual.
Bill McElligott [PPGASwdB - PPGASoj]
admin@lodgeroomstore.com - skype: lodgeroomint
The Masonic Brotherhood of The Blue Forget-Me-Not

http://lodgeroomstore.co.uk/sales/
http://masonicjewellerystore.com/sales/
http://masonicbookstore.co.uk/store/
http://sell-buy.net/info/
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6907
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:36 pm
Location: Essex, England

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby kimosabe » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:36 pm

Thanks. I thought not. So why the inclusion of such fictitious ridiculous torture and self-harm, if the reality was/is that you would simply be reprimanded, suspended or invited to resign from the Craft?
kimosabe
LRUK Fellow
LRUK  Fellow
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:21 am

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:15 pm

kimosabe wrote:Thanks. I thought not. So why the inclusion of such fictitious ridiculous torture and self-harm, if the reality was/is that you would simply be reprimanded, suspended or invited to resign from the Craft?

Because at a time when penalties were commonly so severe, anything less, such as a simple reprimand, would be risible and ineffective.
User avatar
Trouillogan
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 2961
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:19 pm
Location: West Sussex, UK

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby russellholland » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:03 am

If a body were to be buried below the high water mark then it would be done under naval law. What might that tell us?
russellholland
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:14 am

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby admin » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:34 am

kimosabe wrote:Thanks. I thought not. So why the inclusion of such fictitious ridiculous torture and self-harm, if the reality was/is that you would simply be reprimanded, suspended or invited to resign from the Craft?


In my opinion it is good practice to try and take yourself back to the times when these rituals were created. To understand that the penalty was not at all unusual.

The English language is an ever expanding monster. Todays words and phrases did not exist or in every day use just 10 years ago. I said to my Grandkids , I used to do down to a Disco. They said 'whats a Disco , Grandad'.

Ritual, like Church rituals are handed down originally by word of mouth. Freemasonry needs that foundation of consistancy for it to be of use.

To say the Ritual has not changed is not accurate. I have a ritaul book printed 1930 from The Stoneworkers and Paviours. You could probbly prompt if at a meeting but some words and phrases are different.

When you have thousands of people learning a set ritual it would be foolish to keep changing it.
Bill McElligott [PPGASwdB - PPGASoj]
admin@lodgeroomstore.com - skype: lodgeroomint
The Masonic Brotherhood of The Blue Forget-Me-Not

http://lodgeroomstore.co.uk/sales/
http://masonicjewellerystore.com/sales/
http://masonicbookstore.co.uk/store/
http://sell-buy.net/info/
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6907
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:36 pm
Location: Essex, England

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby Peter Taylor » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:54 pm

As far as my Ritual is concerned, there's nothing in it that says that these penalties will be carried if I were to violate my Obligation(s). It only states that "i would rather" have them inflicted! They simply make the promise more profound! (Other than any esoteric or hermetic meaning of course)
Regards, Peter
PM Albert Lochee 448, PM Discovery 1789,:
Honorary, 49, 54, 164, 225, 299, 327, 486, 1220, 1308, SC: PSW 1812, SC, Trinidad: Assoc. 198, Colorado: PPGSec PGL Forfashire.
IPZ RA Chapter Albert 503: RAM, CC: AASR PMWS, 30°: SRIS RWC VII, 8°: ROoS: KT: KTP: RCC: OSM: Squaremen
User avatar
Peter Taylor
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17172
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby Richard George » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:17 am

It's like saying that kids WOULD like to "cross my heart and hope to die" - are you suggesting that they really would do that or is it just a way of saying "I really do promise you know"?
Richard George
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby Lazza21 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:09 am

I have kept my Ritual Book from when I was initiated in 1980, before the penalties were removed by order of UGLE, and the penalties are included
there is no "I'd rather be...." or referring to them as "traditional"
It should be remembered that when that when Freemasonry was in it's infancy oaths were always frightening not taken literally expecting that Divine
justice would deal with oath breakers.
Wheatsheaf Lodge No.9445
Clerkenwell Lodge of Installed Masters No.9628
Greenhythe Chapter No.5449
Lazza21
LRUK Super Member
LRUK Super Member
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:34 pm
Location: Meopham, Kent

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby Trouillogan » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:53 pm

Mine, from way before your 1980(!), has '. . . or the more effective punishment of . . .'. So there was a get-out clause back then in some rituals and no need for the change.
User avatar
Trouillogan
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
LRUK Grand Supreme Master
 
Posts: 2961
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:19 pm
Location: West Sussex, UK

Re: Were penalties ever at one time included?

Postby Lazza21 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:34 am

You are right Trouillogan I have just re read it and the rubric says "For Lodges using permissive alternative form of Obl." (mine didn't) ever bearing in mind the traditional penalty.......
I would rather UGLE had gone down the route of the alternative form I think it was more elegant than the present way and wouldn't have needed rewriting so much.
Wheatsheaf Lodge No.9445
Clerkenwell Lodge of Installed Masters No.9628
Greenhythe Chapter No.5449
Lazza21
LRUK Super Member
LRUK Super Member
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:34 pm
Location: Meopham, Kent


Return to General Interest and Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests