1st degree morality conundrum.

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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby russellholland » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:20 pm

> The meaning of life, is that it has no meaning

Should we take a vote on that?
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby admin » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:52 pm

The issue here is one of perception.

If you tell a story to 50 people they will all leave the room and each will take a different concept of that story away with them.

The purpose of Freemasonry in my huble opinion is as you see at the top of each page on this forum.

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Well Theron had an impact on me and if you knew him I suspect on you. Many years back he was a fireball of enthusiasm and in his latter years became content and constructive in Freemasonry and his own life, which ended several years ago. But he left behind that phrase which I will always keep repeating. Through all the ritual and the performance of it , it is you who is the rough ashlar.

We are molded by that which we see and hear.

For example when I was a child I took my lead from The Lone Ranger, Superman, John Wayne films. Now the kids get SpongeBob Square Pants and the Telly Tubbies.

So it is your choice - The Lone Ranger or Sponge Bob Square pants.
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Richard Develyn » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:33 am

Just on a related question, is there much variation in the charges given after each degree across freemasonry, in particular with regard to their moral content outside of just asking you not to reveal masonic secrets?

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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Trouillogan » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:24 am

Richard Develyn wrote:Just on a related question, is there much variation in the charges given after each degree across freemasonry, in particular with regard to their moral content outside of just asking you not to reveal masonic secrets?

Richard

A fair bit but the essential elements are the same, since they are derived from the same or similar sources.
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Richard Develyn » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:28 pm

Trouillogan wrote:
Richard Develyn wrote:Just on a related question, is there much variation in the charges given after each degree across freemasonry, in particular with regard to their moral content outside of just asking you not to reveal masonic secrets?

Richard

A fair bit but the essential elements are the same, since they are derived from the same or similar sources.


It's the essential elements that I'm keen to figure out, since presumably these are the essential elements of masonic ethics / morality.

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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby russellholland » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:35 pm

We may get a clue if we can work out why it is necessary to veil the "morality" from those expected to practice it.
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Trouillogan » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:18 pm

russellholland wrote:We may get a clue if we can work out why it is necessary to veil the "morality" from those expected to practice it.

The reasons are couched in parables!
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby russellholland » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:38 am

Surely the easiest way to teach morality is just to say what it is. Why should morality be veiled?
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:22 am

russellholland wrote:Surely the easiest way to teach morality is just to say what it is. Why should morality be veiled?

Because there's a need to work at it with understanding. If it takes time and effort to achieve a thing, that thing is more valued than if it were handed out on a silver platter.
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby russellholland » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:35 am

So in 300 years has anyone decoded the veiled morality?
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Richard Develyn » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:16 am

If you veil morality too much, people start to suspect that there isn't any.

If you say to people you must get there by following your own journey, the obvious answer is "how do I know this is the right journey?" And if there is no *right* journey, then there is no underlying morality.

Somewhere or another freemasonry has to stand for *something*. Certainly when I read the charges, past the hugely laboured "thou shalt not reveal our secrets" bit, which sounds as if you're about to be told the codes to launch all the world's nuclear missiles, then you get to some brotherly love style stuff which has to be what this is all about.

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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Mike Martin » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:06 pm

Richard Develyn wrote: It's the essential elements that I'm keen to figure out, since presumably these are the essential elements of masonic ethics / morality.


Hi Richard, has your Proposer or the Lodge Mentor introduced you to the Lectures? Much of what is "hidden/veiled" in our system is only called that because Lodges have stopped working the Lectures that actually explain what the Degree Ceremonies are all about and sadly many of us think that the Degree Ceremonies are the sum of Freemasonry.

If you are interested in learning what it's actually about you could do far worse than buying yourself a copy of "the Lectures of the Three Degrees", this book is an accompaniment to the little Blue Book that you were probably given following your Raising. You can be purchase it through this very site: https://lodgeroomstore.co.uk/LRstore/in ... er=product
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Richard Develyn » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:57 pm

Mike Martin wrote:If you are interested in learning what it's actually about you could do far worse than buying yourself a copy of "the Lectures of the Three Degrees", this book is an accompaniment to the little Blue Book that you were probably given following your Raising. You can be purchase it through this very site: https://lodgeroomstore.co.uk/LRstore/in ... er=product


That's good advice, thank you. I will.

All the best

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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:35 pm

russellholland wrote:So in 300 years has anyone decoded the veiled morality?

Each one of us does so in his own way.
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby russellholland » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:22 pm

Richard Develyn wrote:. sounds as if you're about to be told the codes to launch all the world's nuclear missiles, then you get to some brotherly love style stuff which has to be what this is all about.


Brotherly love has been publicly taught for millennia.

If Masonic Science exists, perhaps that is what is being protected by the secrecy.

Certainly there is much secret science in the mundane world - military, commercial,.... Did ancient brethren have secret skills?
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Richard Develyn » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:34 am

russellholland wrote:[Certainly there is much secret science in the mundane world - military, commercial,.... Did ancient brethren have secret skills?


Masonry - as in the building of cathedrals and the like.

Masons were clearly the geniuses of the ancient/medieval world. They kept their secrets in order to prevent cowboys besmirching their name (medieval cowboys !? .... whatever one might call them) by constructing dodgy buildings.

On the back of that I imagine came all sorts of rules about fair business conduct, in recognition that cathedrals can fall down due to bad business practice as well as bad engineering.

I find it difficult to imagine any organisation back then which would have been as important, prestigious and no doubt exclusive as masonry. They were responsible for the most important assets of the ancient/medieval world and these assets were difficult to construct. Nowadays, of course, we tend think of masons as brick-layers.

All IMVHO of course.

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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Peter Taylor » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:40 pm

Trouillogan wrote:
russellholland wrote:Surely the easiest way to teach morality is just to say what it is. Why should morality be veiled?

Because there's a need to work at it with understanding. If it takes time and effort to achieve a thing, that thing is more valued than if it were handed out on a silver platter.


A wise man once said:

"To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it" (Matthew 13:10-17).
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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby Richard Develyn » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:54 pm

Peter Taylor wrote:
Trouillogan wrote:
russellholland wrote:Surely the easiest way to teach morality is just to say what it is. Why should morality be veiled?

Because there's a need to work at it with understanding. If it takes time and effort to achieve a thing, that thing is more valued than if it were handed out on a silver platter.


A wise man once said:

"To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it" (Matthew 13:10-17).


He did then go on to explain himself, though (27)

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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby JohnXRV » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:24 pm

"The Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett is a fictional novel which gives a glimpse into stone masonry. The secret lodge is for settling squabbles and hierarchy. There are social norms for engaging and paying masons. Bit of a ripping yarn spanning some 30 or 40 years as well


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Re: 1st degree morality conundrum.

Postby russellholland » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:22 pm

>Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive

Such is the reason for veiling Masonic "morality".
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