Made up names?

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Made up names?

Postby kimosabe » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:40 pm

I'm trying to establish (see what I did there?) where in the Christian VSL is mentioned any link to how either of the Pillars were named. There's no link to the names of the pillars stated in the Bible, just the names given to them. Would I be correct in concluding that the links stated in our rituals are therefore a fabrication?
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Re: Made up names?

Postby ozmike » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:45 pm

Kings 7:21
"And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof J: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof B."
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Re: Made up names?

Postby Mike Martin » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:38 pm

kimosabe wrote:I'm trying to establish (see what I did there?) where in the Christian VSL is mentioned any link to how either of the Pillars were named. There's no link to the names of the pillars stated in the Bible, just the names given to them. Would I be correct in concluding that the links stated in our rituals are therefore a fabrication?

No you wouldn't, although you're looking in the wrong place King Solomon is an Old Testament character.

1 Kings 7, B's relationship to David is found in 1 Chronicles 2 and J appears in 1 Chronicles 24
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Re: Made up names?

Postby kimosabe » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:26 am

ozmike wrote:Kings 7:21
"And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof J: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof B."


Yes but both names were not uncommon and there is no causal link in the Bible VSL, between the two names given to the pillars and the two characters, as stated in the ritual. That's like saying everyone with your name was named after you, even though there is no evidence for the link between you and anyone else's name.

PS: Why are you abbreviating names which are printed in the most sold book in human history...which you also quoted?
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Re: Made up names?

Postby kimosabe » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:29 am

Mike Martin wrote:
kimosabe wrote:I'm trying to establish (see what I did there?) where in the Christian VSL is mentioned any link to how either of the Pillars were named. There's no link to the names of the pillars stated in the Bible, just the names given to them. Would I be correct in concluding that the links stated in our rituals are therefore a fabrication?

No you wouldn't, although you're looking in the wrong place King Solomon is an Old Testament character.

1 Kings 7, B's relationship to David is found in 1 Chronicles 2 and J appears in 1 Chronicles 24


And none of that proves any link between the two people and the names of the two pillars.....and there's no such person as Hiram Abiff in the Bible VSL. Where is all this stuff from, if not the Bible VSL?
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Re: Made up names?

Postby ozmike » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:12 am

Re abbreviating names: actually the names were in full in the text I copied it over from but for some reason were automatically abbreviated when I pasted them into my reply.
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Re: Made up names?

Postby kimosabe » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:28 am

ozmike wrote:Re abbreviating names: actually the names were in full in the text I copied it over from but for some reason were automatically abbreviated when I pasted them into my reply.


Okay.

So what do you think then? There's no record of any link between the names of the two pillars in question and the two people that Freemasonry has associated them with. Who was responsible for that?
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Re: Made up names?

Postby Mike Martin » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:58 am

kimosabe wrote:
Mike Martin wrote:
kimosabe wrote:I'm trying to establish (see what I did there?) where in the Christian VSL is mentioned any link to how either of the Pillars were named. There's no link to the names of the pillars stated in the Bible, just the names given to them. Would I be correct in concluding that the links stated in our rituals are therefore a fabrication?

No you wouldn't, although you're looking in the wrong place King Solomon is an Old Testament character.

1 Kings 7, B's relationship to David is found in 1 Chronicles 2 and J appears in 1 Chronicles 24


And none of that proves any link between the two people and the names of the two pillars.....and there's no such person as Hiram Abiff in the Bible VSL. Where is all this stuff from, if not the Bible VSL?


Huh? The three passages I've pointed you to above, from the Bible, confirm the information used within our Masonic Ceremonies except that nowhere is it stated that J officiated at the dedication of the Temple.

There is no person in the OT specifically named HA and that is because he is the "Masonic allegory" that has been superimposed onto an Old Testament story, common in past times to illustrate the Masonic ideal.
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Re: Made up names?

Postby Peter Taylor » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:58 pm

Mike Martin wrote:There is no person in the OT specifically named HA and that is because he is the "Masonic allegory" that has been superimposed onto an Old Testament story, common in past times to illustrate the Masonic ideal.


1 Kings 7:13King James Version (KJV)
13 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre.

2 Chronicles 4:16
The pails, the shovels, and the meat-forks, and all the utensils Huram-abi made of polished bronze for King Solomon for the house of the Lord.
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Re: Made up names?

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:25 pm

We should also bear in mind that there are no vowels in written Hebrew, that the biblical accounts have been copied many times over and have redactions, also that 'abi'/'abiff' etc. was a term implying 'master', expert', 'minister' and like meanings and not a name.

In Josephus' 'Antiquities of the Jews' you will find 'Booz' mentioned. J did not officiate in any way - Solomon himself did the dedication, according to the biblical account.

Very good to see this and other enquiries going on!
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Re: Made up names?

Postby Peter Taylor » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:15 am

Trouillogan wrote:We should also bear in mind that there are no vowels in written Hebrew, that the biblical accounts have been copied many times over and have redactions, also that 'abi'/'abiff' etc. was a term implying 'master', expert', 'minister' and like meanings and not a name.

In Josephus' 'Antiquities of the Jews' you will find 'Booz' mentioned. J did not officiate in any way - Solomon himself did the dedication, according to the biblical account.

Very good to see this and other enquiries going on!


Of course, there are so many different versions and translations of the Bible and you can sure that those who wrote the HAB story will have chosen the one that fitted there agenda!
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Re: Made up names?

Postby kimosabe » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:00 pm

"1 Kings 7, B's relationship to David is found in 1 Chronicles 2 and J appears in 1 Chronicles 24
Huh? The three passages I've pointed you to above, from the Bible, confirm the information used within our Masonic Ceremonies except that nowhere is it stated that J officiated at the dedication of the Temple."

err no they don't. The three passages you quoted do nothing of the sort. I don't think it wise to adjust information from a VSL in this way because it can and surely does lead to misunderstanding.

- 1 Kings 7 - "(21) He erected the pillars at the portico of the temple. The pillar to the south he named Jakin[m] and the one to the north B.[n]"
This provides no links to people after whom the Pillars may have been named, if this was even the case. So that's an assumption, not a fact.

- 1 Chronicles 2 - "(11) And Nahshon begat Salma, and Salma begat B. (12) And B begat Obed, and Obed begat Jesse.
What does that prove? It's probably not even in the same century as KST and wasn't B a farmer anyway? Hardly befitting to name anything after him.

- 1 Chronicles 24 - "(17) the twenty-first to Jakin" "(19) This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the Lord, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their ancestor Aaron, as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded him.
If you were 21st out of 30 people to process into a lodge, would you expect to have a major part of it's structure named after you or possibly leave that honour to someone further up the line up?

There is no person in the OT specifically named HA and that is because he is the "Masonic allegory" that has been superimposed onto an Old Testament story, common in past times to illustrate the Masonic ideal.
- Indeed there is no HA. But when two specific Hirams are mentioned (one also as Huram) in relation to KST, neither of which relate to anyone surnamed 'Abiff', why not just go with one of them and use their names allegorically?.... although I will accept the rest of the 3rd to be an enjoyable work of fictional allegory. This is the stuff of Indiana Jones, not something to swear oaths on any VSL over. I think it should be corrected or made very clear because it could cause a feeling of disrespect.
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Re: Made up names?

Postby Peter Taylor » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:08 pm

kimosabe wrote:There is no person in the OT specifically named HA and that is because he is the "Masonic allegory" that has been superimposed onto an Old Testament story, common in past times to illustrate the Masonic ideal.
- Indeed there is no HA. But when two specific Hirams are mentioned (one also as Huram) in relation to KST, neither of which relate to anyone surnamed 'Abiff', why not just go with one of them and use their names allegorically?.... although I will accept the rest of the 3rd to be an enjoyable work of fictional allegory. This is the stuff of Indiana Jones, not something to swear oaths on any VSL over. I think it should be corrected or made very clear because it could cause a feeling of disrespect.


Like I said earlier:

1 Kings 7:13King James Version (KJV)
13 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre.

2 Chronicles 4:16
The pails, the shovels, and the meat-forks, and all the utensils Huram-abi made of polished bronze for King Solomon for the house of the Lord.
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Re: Made up names?

Postby Trouillogan » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:33 pm

kimosabe wrote:"1 Kings 7, B's relationship to David is found in 1 Chronicles 2 and J appears in 1 Chronicles 24
Huh? The three passages I've pointed you to above, from the Bible, confirm the information used within our Masonic Ceremonies except that nowhere is it stated that J officiated at the dedication of the Temple."

err no they don't. The three passages you quoted do nothing of the sort. I don't think it wise to adjust information from a VSL in this way because it can and surely does lead to misunderstanding.

- 1 Kings 7 - "(21) He erected the pillars at the portico of the temple. The pillar to the south he named Jakin[m] and the one to the north B.[n]"
This provides no links to people after whom the Pillars may have been named, if this was even the case. So that's an assumption, not a fact.

- 1 Chronicles 2 - "(11) And Nahshon begat Salma, and Salma begat B. (12) And B begat Obed, and Obed begat Jesse.
What does that prove? It's probably not even in the same century as KST and wasn't B a farmer anyway? Hardly befitting to name anything after him.

- 1 Chronicles 24 - "(17) the twenty-first to Jakin" "(19) This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the Lord, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their ancestor Aaron, as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded him.
If you were 21st out of 30 people to process into a lodge, would you expect to have a major part of it's structure named after you or possibly leave that honour to someone further up the line up?

There is no person in the OT specifically named HA and that is because he is the "Masonic allegory" that has been superimposed onto an Old Testament story, common in past times to illustrate the Masonic ideal.
- Indeed there is no HA. But when two specific Hirams are mentioned (one also as Huram) in relation to KST, neither of which relate to anyone surnamed 'Abiff', why not just go with one of them and use their names allegorically?.... although I will accept the rest of the 3rd to be an enjoyable work of fictional allegory. This is the stuff of Indiana Jones, not something to swear oaths on any VSL over. I think it should be corrected or made very clear because it could cause a feeling of disrespect.


You need to take into account that there are no vowels in Hebrew. Also that the biblical accounts we read nowadays have been subject to serial translations and redactions. The term 'abi' or in some instances 'abiff', is not a surname (they didn't exist back then) and would be more normally used to imply 'master', 'expert', 'teacher', or 'father' in the sense of being above others in skill. 'Hiram' is just one variation of the sounds 'HRM', which you can intersperse with whatever vowels suit your dialect: Hiram, Huram, Hirom and so on. Adoniram is one variation implying lord or chief (hiram).

On top of all this, many of the biblical stories were not intended as historical records in the way that we understand history as a collection of verifiable facts, but more a mixture of facts and legend in order to convey moral and social precepts. Then again, on top of that, for us, the compilers of our rituals fleshed out, embellished and developed those stories in the poetical language of their day in order to impart examples of moral behaviour in, for them, straightforward terms.

The point I'm trying to make is that the important aspects are the inner meanings of our masonic parables and not the semantic details of the overlying tales. E.g. there is no record of the Hiram of Solomon's Temple fame being killed off, though through the ages both foundation and completion sacrifices, human and animal, have been common practice.
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Re: Made up names?

Postby admin » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:23 am

I have found that a check on Rabinical lecture can exalin or lead to an explanation.
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Re: Made up names?

Postby Mike Martin » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:07 pm

kimosabe wrote: Huh?


I'm beginning to think that you're just playing!

1 Kings 7 tells us the names of the Pillars - No argument.
1 Chronicles 2 shows the hereditary line of King David (ps a shepherd until he defeated Goliath in single combat and was anointed King) and confirms B as his Great Grandfather David's father was Jesse who was the son of Obed etc. According to Jewish tradition his wife Ruth actually dies during her Great Great Grandson's (King Solomon) reign. So not really much of a stretch there!
It's the third one that is an issue and that is because 1 Chronicles 24 (so do 1 Chronicles 9 and YOU) confirms that there was a J who was a Priest in the Temple but it does not confirm that he officiated at the Temple's dedication.

Of course if you are able to tell me (obviously with references) which Jakin that second Pillar was actually dedicated to, I am happy to consider adjusting my take on the allegorical story contained within the Masonic Ceremonies and Lectures :) In the meantime I'm out.
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Re: Made up names?

Postby Peter Taylor » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:40 am

Mike Martin wrote:
kimosabe wrote: Huh?


I'm beginning to think that you're just playing!

Well i've stated twice that the name Hiram Abi does appear in a Bible.
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Re: Made up names?

Postby Mike Martin » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:50 pm

Peter Taylor wrote:
Mike Martin wrote:
kimosabe wrote: Huh?


I'm beginning to think that you're just playing!

Well i've stated twice that the name Hiram Abi does appear in a Bible.

Peter, he asked specifically about the Pillars :)
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Re: Made up names?

Postby kimosabe » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:29 pm

Peter Taylor wrote:
Mike Martin wrote:
kimosabe wrote: Huh?


I'm beginning to think that you're just playing!

Well i've stated twice that the name Hiram Abi does appear in a Bible.


Peter. I'm not "playing" and you just seem to be saying 'yes they were', without thinking about what i'm specifically asking.

I'm trying to establish a causal link between the names of the two pillars and where in the Bible it is stated that the pillars were NAMED AFTER the same B and 'J' that Masonic ritual states was the case. The Bible just states their names and doesn't link those names to anybody. None of your references confirm any of this.

As yet and to the best of my abilities, no such evidence exists, so shouldn't Masonic ritual should be changed accordingly?

"...so named after B, a Great Grandfather of David, ...etc" is in the ritual BUT
"...so named after B, a Great Grandfather of David etc" is NOT found anywhere in the Bible, with reference to who the Pillars were named after.

Is that not clear enough?
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Re: Made up names?

Postby admin » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:47 pm

To some extent your right but need more research in the Bible, differing Bibles spell slightly different.

Mathew 1

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;

5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

J
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ ... ble/J

J

J—he doth establish or founding.

The fourth son of Simeon and founder of a tribal family (Gen. 46:10; Exod. 6:15; Num. 26:12). Called Jarib in 1 Chronicles 4:24.
A priest in Jerusalem after the captivity (1 Chron. 9:10; Neh. 11:10.)
A head of one of the families of the sons of Aaron associated with the courses of the sacerdotal body (1 Chron. 24:17).

J is also the name of the right pillar in Solomon’s temple (1 Kings 7:21; 2 Chron. 3:17).

You can finish looking up references. Some Bible spell it Jakin

They are not secret names they are widely published
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