Scottish Craft Ritual

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Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby martgee » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:15 pm

Guys. I am a Norfolk mason, currently starting a book on the history and development of craft ritual.
I have quite a few different UK ritual books.
To add to my store, I want to look at Scottish ritual.
I believe there are Harvey, Standard, MacBride, Modern, Goudieleck etc.
Can anyone tell me how different these are from each other and from say
Stability or Emulation.
I can buy the ritual books, but before I do, it would be nice to know which are really different

pip pip

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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby Harmony » Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:39 pm

Interesting - every lodge in Scotland is entitled to have its own ritual. Some are based on rituals like Goudielock, but many are custom written. An example of this is Lodge Montiefiore in Glasgow which rewrote and modernised all its ritual in the last 2 years.
The Trades House of Glasgow Lodge, No1241SC,
Lodge The Kings Park, No1386SC, PM
Polnoon Castle Conclave No 372 (OSM) PSR
Rockmount Chapter No 367 SC
Camphill Chapter No 311 SC PZ
Glasgow & Auld West Guild Lodge
The Temple in Glasgow No 6 (KT)
Glasgow Sovereign Chapter No. 11
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby martgee » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:39 pm

Did I get your reply? Scottish Lodges can write their own ritual?????
I was under the impression that as in the UK, most apparently differing rituals are in fact almost entirely that promulgated
after the union and 'fixed' wither by Stability LOI (1817) or emulation LOI (1823).

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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby eckywan2 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:39 pm

I guess the two quotes you mention are in another country?
Many of our older lodges ( ie going back 500 years or so, or more) just don't have books
we certainly don't expect any to be produced during meetings
although nowadays many lodges have an official prompter ( DoC or secy often) who will use notes / book)

The best working Ive ever seen is at Kilwinning no 0 or with no number under GLoS just acknowledged to be oldest in world
but 1) Im biased I was born there ( live in Edinburgh since 1970) 2) they meet EVERY 2nd and 4th Tuesday and the other Tuesdays are LOIs and are well rehearsed and have such regular degrees 1 then 2 then 3 then back to 1, 2, 3 again with annual mark
Jims lodge is another sorry he is dalkeith here Which is his lodge name its no 10 but often uses latin so he comes from X
and they and many others in his province jist don't use books
RL Gislebertus 478 in Burgandy started a nice newish phrase "par Coeur et avec le couer" ritual...... by heart and with the heart
they have book dating back to 1985 which is a translation of that of my mother lodge

( two good websites brethren MK0 and Gislebertus 478... should suffice to search, or pm me and Ill check it out and tell you (2 busy today)
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby Trouillogan » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:42 pm

martgee wrote:Did I get your reply? Scottish Lodges can write their own ritual?????
I was under the impression that as in the UK, most apparently differing rituals are in fact almost entirely that promulgated
after the union and 'fixed' wither by Stability LOI (1817) or emulation LOI (1823).

MG

The 1813 union was an English thing and nothing to do with Scotland or Ireland, which carried on as they always had.
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby eckywan2 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:29 pm

Or it was everything to do with Scotland and Ireland, and also America and France
England was afraid that it would lose the Scots and Irish that did ( and do) their fighting for them
as they were at war with both France and America
They were afraid that French and American freemasons would combine with Scots and Irish brethren and those in England with Jacobite feelings too
so they tried to ban the craft and failed
so they banned all secret societies and failed
so they tried to ban all "higher orders" and failed

So they took over the English craft for military religious and political reasons ( as this is an open site and not a lodge it can be discussed here)
and established UGLE in December 1813 and claimed to be the self named "premier" GL

So the story about 1717 is just to help support the arrogant claim to be better or before, whatever you think premier was intended to mean
and GLoS and Ireland had to accept the fait accompli or appear disloyal to GB and we still cowtow to those principles

Just prior to 19th century, Bro Robert Burns had become a companion in Land of cakes RAC held in , ie as part of Lodge Entebbe(70) in Eyemouth
( which chapter was actually English) but chapters were then banned by the English government
The village I was brought up in started a new lodge ... West Kilbride Royal Arch Lodge now 320
a lodge only, but with RAC in its name , as had Ardrossan nearby ( 314) and there are still 11 lodges in this country with RA in their lodge title

Back in 1745 Bonnie Prince Charlie MAY have had a Templar meeting in The Palace of Holyrood House but Im not convinced of that.

Brother John Paul Jones , founder of the American navy also may have raided Maryport in Cumbria
or at least visited there while he was across the Solway Firth visiting Scots relations
Across the channel Napoleon made his brother Grand master of the Grand Orient and its said that all of his officers were in the craft
Bro John Paul johns later went on to sort out problems the Russian navy had and they still use the Scots saltire as their battle flag ( ie in reverse , blue st Andrews cross on white background)

I believe in telling the truth and Im sorry some of the above I cant prove ( eg 1745 at Holyrood)
otherwise I cant avoid thinking about facts when I hear / read claims for 1717 ... or "lets party anyway"

Back to the subject , Each Scots lodge was and is independent, many are so old that they evolved their ritual without books or other methods of communicating from one village to the next and learning by rote hence the many minor differences in working.
A big example nowadays is the changes being made at St Davids 36 in Edinburgh , now St Davids The University Lodge which has had wholemeal changes to ritual!
So ( ishouldnt keep starting with so!) Trouillogan you are right, Scotland and Ireland carried on as always and I hope we still do, despite big brother.


Bil sorry I had to say it all please don't bar me and I will try not to respond to any further party claims ( or even an invitation)
Fraternally as always
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby Trouillogan » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:10 pm

In saying "The 1813 union was an English thing and nothing to do with Scotland or Ireland, which carried on as they always had.", I was just pointing up that since Ireland and Scotland didn't have the same situation of discord between the 'Antients' and the 'Moderns' that we had in England, there was no union to take place. Having said that, I am mindful that both Ireland and Scotland had dissenters from their 'mainstream' GLs at around the same time as our union but it was not on the same scale, over a somewhat shorter period and were resolved relatively quickly; quicker than our sixty two year disharmony anyway.

Yes, it is true that what essentials our Lodge of Reconciliation, under Dr Samuel Hemming, finally decided in 1816 in UGLE were first taken up by the Stability Lodge of Instruction in 1817 and much later by the Emulation Lodge of Improvement around 1830 (between their foundation in 1823 and then, they worked the Lectures but not the degrees). Those essentials appeared to be the openings, closings, prayers, entrustings and the obligations but little else as far as we know. Even then, since it was forbidden to have the work printed, what happened away from London was a bit of a hotch-potch and is why we have these delightful variations wherever we visit. Those variations would appear to be as nothing compared with what happens in Scotland, though. Of course, the necessary elements were agreed with the the Irish and Scots during the reconciliation process. What could be called the 'Masonic island' of Bristol, having very strong maritime links with Ireland, have a distinctive Irish flavour to their working.
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby Dalkeith » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:53 pm

Hi all, to go back to Steve's (Eckywan ) first point, my lodge no 10 ( or no X if you prefer), we don't work out of a ritual book as such. After each degree, the candidate is given a little book pertaining to what degree he has done. Our secretary does any prompting if necessary (I needed 1 or 2 last week, by I was my first time on the floor!)
Oh and as the oldest lodge in the Province of Midlothian, we have notable minutes going back to 1680.


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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby eckywan2 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:56 am

Hey Its Sunday Alexander on Sundays or at court
ecky and steve rest of week !
( Fraser cant make it Monday .... Business conference call to California)
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby Dalkeith » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:58 am

eckywan2 wrote:Hey Its Sunday Alexander on Sundays or at court
ecky and steve rest of week !
( Fraser cant make it Monday .... Business conference call to California)


Surely that would make me James if we are doing Sunday names!!

See you tonight, will be a good 3rd degree and even I get to help out a bit


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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby eckywan2 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:19 pm

For Trouillogan
You are so right about problems elsewhere brother T
In 1736 Scotland did not need a G L as it had had Kilwinning in an executive position for centuries before
Therefore when the bigwigs in Edinburgh wanted to take over power they invited 100 plus lodges to Edinburgh
Only 36 were interested enough to come .When it came to a vote again only 25 agreed So three quarters were against
either voting with their feet by nonattendance or voting against !
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby Trouillogan » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:14 am

eckywan2 wrote:For Trouillogan
You are so right about problems elsewhere brother T
In 1736 Scotland did not need a G L as it had had Kilwinning in an executive position for centuries before
Therefore when the bigwigs in Edinburgh wanted to take over power they invited 100 plus lodges to Edinburgh
Only 36 were interested enough to come .When it came to a vote again only 25 agreed So three quarters were against
either voting with their feet by nonattendance or voting against !

Either they weren't interested - or, perish the thought, the idea of paying dues to Edinburgh wasn't that appealing! The trouble in Ireland was when the Dublin Grand Sec absconded northwards with books and money and tried to set up his rival GL. So, when that was sorted out, they had to do a bit of re-uniting.
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby MrBenn » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:45 am

So about the only thing we all have in common is schism and division!
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby Harmony » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:16 pm

eckywan2 wrote:The best working Ive ever seen is at Kilwinning no 0 or with no number under GLoS just acknowledged to be oldest in world


I think "claimed to be" rather than "acknowledged to be".

I personally think that the Lodge of Glasgow St John No 3bis has a better claim. It has 3 (pre-GLOS) "charters", the first being from Malcolm III, granted on 5 Oct 1057, the second being from William the Lion in 1181 and the third being a Seal of Cause from the City dated 14 October 1551.

MK0 claim 1140, based on the foundation of the Abbey (not a charter or any documentation). Mary's Chapel similarly from 1128, based on the building of Holyrood Abbey (again no Charter). Glasgow Cathedral was rebuilt in 1057, and again in 1181 and the 2 charters tie together and to the later Seal of Cause.
The Trades House of Glasgow Lodge, No1241SC,
Lodge The Kings Park, No1386SC, PM
Polnoon Castle Conclave No 372 (OSM) PSR
Rockmount Chapter No 367 SC
Camphill Chapter No 311 SC PZ
Glasgow & Auld West Guild Lodge
The Temple in Glasgow No 6 (KT)
Glasgow Sovereign Chapter No. 11
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby eckywan2 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:58 pm

Do you think any of them had a pub lunch about a thousand years ago, which we can celebrate and then put that date on GLoS in George Stree??
It seems to work for anything English.
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby martgee » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:30 pm

Oh. Dear. I seem to have initiated a whole pressure vessel of Scottish fury here.
The grouping of 4 lodges at the Goose and Gridiron in 1717 did not in my view. have any political significance at all. As to 'trying to shut out Scottish and Irish masonry', I think a bunch of enlightened or 'speculative' (in the modern usage) freemasons got together and felt that it was time to regularise, rationalise. codify or whatever, what they and a few other London Lodges did at the time. I don't know of any evidence that proves or even suggests that there was a more sinister or empire-building influence.
As to the Antient/Modern 'battle', two groups of people who do things differently and believe in their own 'system' passionately are bound to disagree and UK masonry, in many respects, is the better for what was added, changed and dropped for the union to succeed.
My original questions, which no-one has yet tried to answer are 'is there a fairly standard of ritual in Scotland', 'does it bear much correspondence with the basic UK rituals', 'how did it evolve differently from UK ritual'.
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Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby jackal » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:25 pm

eckywan2 wrote:Do you think any of them had a pub lunch about a thousand years ago, which we can celebrate and then put that date on GLoS in George Stree??
It seems to work for anything English.


Sounds like a bit of jealousy to me.

Go on Ecky, do it, and if still around and can be bothered I will come to the party if you have one. I won't bitch and moan about it because to be honest it won't mean a damned thing to me, not being Scots and all.

Just saying like.
Last edited by jackal on Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby Dalkeith » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:47 pm

Martgee,

To answer your original post, I know that the little shop in GLoS does indeed sell a book called Scottish Craft Ritual, however, as Eckywan will confirm, each lodge up here has little differences in the rituals, some are quite similar, some are very different.

I've added a link for you to have a perusal, hope that's of some use to you:

http://www.grandlodgescotland.com/compo ... Itemid=240


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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby admin » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:01 pm

eckywan2 wrote:Bil sorry I had to say it all please don't bar me and I will try not to respond to any further party claims ( or even an invitation)
Fraternally as always


We should be able to discuss things without going back to the same subject. We have a thread to talk about the origins. It should be done there.

Its a bit like football, my pal is Scottish and when Scotland was outed from the World or Euro cup [can't remember which] I asked him who he wanted to win the Cup now, ' He said 'I don't care so long as it is not England'.

Years later watching on Pub TV it was reversed and the entire Pub was cheering for Scotland, he was amazed.

There are many wonderful things about Scottish Freemasonry, there are many South of the border who do a great job also. Like all journeys it matters not where or when you started it matters which way you are going.
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Re: Scottish Craft Ritual

Postby MrBenn » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:24 pm

There isn't a 'UK' ritual though, I know it appears as if it is splitting hairs but it is an important distinction
There are rituals in use in UGLE, which includes England & Wales, Districts overseas, etc
There isn't a UK one though
Needs saying as it can be a red rag to a bull calling 'England' 'UK'
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