Question about Provincial Honours

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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby gcoudert » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:34 pm

(28) Hmm... Past rank it'll be, then...
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby gcoudert » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:27 pm

OK, yet another question. What happens if you receive a first appointment but cannot attend the investiture ceremony?
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby middlepillar » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:45 pm

Its normally not a problem, usually because it doesnt happen very often and sometimes the recipient genuinely cannot attend. His name will be read out and the Secretary will say apologies!
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Nik ODwyer » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:35 am

I know that this is an old thread, but I have recently discovered (from my craft lodge) that although the older members thought that 4 members were suitable to be put forward for honours, the Prov Rep disagreed and as such only one got put forward, this is a real shame especially as the Prov Rep never attends our meetings (unless someone of high rank is visiting). Has anyone else experienced this within their Lodge?

Also, I know that 7 years (out of the chair) is often banded around as the time to receive your first honours, but I believe that it should be based on activeness of member and commitment, so could be longer, but also a lot shorter, - comments on this please.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby middlepillar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:59 am

Nik

It is not down to the Prov Rep who gets put forward! It is down to The Lodge Committee! Although only one name ever gets put forward. Are you sure the Rep didnt just select the most likely of the 4 and put him forward?

It may not seem fair, but Province sets the time gap that a brother through the chair must wait, if the rep knew one or two of those put forward hadn't served the time he would of taken them out because they would have no chance (The only way a PM can jump the year gap is by being recognised by The Official visitor as someone with really good potential, he would then be recommended by the OV and his name would be discussed at provincial level as to whether he gets offered an active role early) This only happens to a few PM's every year.

Each Province works to a set amount of years, some do 10! others 5 it just depends on the Province.

I do however agree there should be more flexibility to recognise hard working members
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby kingofthecut » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:32 pm

On the contrary, I have received my forms today and we can put any brother forward for first or subsequent promotion whether they have been through the chair or not. 7 years from the chair is banded as the traditional gap in Middlesex too though before they will look into a first promotion but we can put anyone forward on merit. In the last two years in fact our two IPM's have received active rank immediately on leaving the chair as ProvGStwd's. A few years ago we got Provincial Rank for our Chaplain who never had, neither ever will go through the chair.

It is highly based on merit and the reports on the Brother from the Master and Secretary as well as the VO on the yearly Promotion Form, however, after the 7 years with average attendance and performance you would most likely receive a certain past rank, with excellent attendance and performance such as acting as Secretary, Treasurer or Chaplain, performing extended workings etc. all of which are asked on the form, you would still wait 7 years but receive a higher first rank.

Having said that a few years back a Brother of ours went through the chair for the first time after being in the Lodge for 40 years and was given active Provincial Rank the following year

Its all to do with the report form which I am about to fill out now. Now, who shall I put forward??!! There is space for one Past Master and one Lay Brother who has not been through the chair but may deem special merit but also talking to the VO and his report that goes in will make all the difference. They don't sit taking notes for nothing you know!
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Nik ODwyer » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:42 pm

Hi,

thank you for the reply and for the details, I wasn't aware that each Provence set different time limits, also that you said only "one" member gets put forward, I have been a member of my Lodge since 2008 and am aware that most years the secretary puts forward multiple members for Honour.

You mention "Lodge Committee" and that it is the decision of them who gets put forward, I am not aware of an official Lodge Committee within my Craft Lodge, it appears to be just the Secretary, maybe I need to investigate this area further. In most Lodges, is the "Lodge Committee" an elected role, or something someone progresses into after a number of years (through the Chair)?

Cheers
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Nik ODwyer » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:50 pm

kingofthecut wrote:On the contrary, I have received my forms today and we can put any brother forward for first or subsequent promotion whether they have been through the chair or not. 7 years from the chair is banded as the traditional gap in Middlesex too though before they will look into a first promotion but we can put anyone forward on merit. In the last two years in fact our two IPM's have received active rank immediately on leaving the chair as ProvGStwd's. A few years ago we got Provincial Rank for our Chaplain who never had, neither ever will go through the chair.

It is highly based on merit and the reports on the Brother from the Master and Secretary as well as the VO on the yearly Promotion Form, however, after the 7 years with average attendance and performance you would most likely receive a certain past rank, with excellent attendance and performance such as acting as Secretary, Treasurer or Chaplain, performing extended workings etc. all of which are asked on the form, you would still wait 7 years but receive a higher first rank.

Having said that a few years back a Brother of ours went through the chair for the first time after being in the Lodge for 40 years and was given active Provincial Rank the following year

Its all to do with the report form which I am about to fill out now. Now, who shall I put forward??!! There is space for one Past Master and one Lay Brother who has not been through the chair but may deem special merit but also talking to the VO and his report that goes in will make all the difference. They don't sit taking notes for nothing you know!


Thank you also for the reply, it is good to know that each Provence is different, and that within your Provence some members have received earlier Honours.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby middlepillar » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:06 am

Nik

The Lodge Committee normally consists of WM, Wardens, All Past Masters, All Founders (if appropriate whether through the chair of not) and two lay brethren (lay brethren meaning two brethren who are not Past Masters or Wardens) normally but not always the two deacons.

As has been said the 'Official' form normally only allows for one PM to be put forward (and one non PM) however this may also vary in different Provinces. In Norfolk it may well be that a Lodge may submit 3 or 4 names but I would doubt it. It could possibly be that your Secretary doesn't actually know the procedure? (I would not want to ask him that though!!)

It is right and proper that any brother who has served to a high standard (ritually, administratively or in any other way) Most Provinces do allow for this, however in most cases it very much depends on the report of The VO and also on how good the write up of the Secretary is!
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Trouillogan » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:10 pm

Nik ODwyer wrote:Hi,

thank you for the reply and for the details, I wasn't aware that each Provence set different time limits, also that you said only "one" member gets put forward, I have been a member of my Lodge since 2008 and am aware that most years the secretary puts forward multiple members for Honour.

You mention "Lodge Committee" and that it is the decision of them who gets put forward, I am not aware of an official Lodge Committee within my Craft Lodge, it appears to be just the Secretary, maybe I need to investigate this area further. In most Lodges, is the "Lodge Committee" an elected role, or something someone progresses into after a number of years (through the Chair)?

Cheers

Niik, have a look at your Lodge bylaws. Therein you should find how the Lodge's 'general purposes committee' is composed. The Master always presides (rule 154 B of C) - he may delegate on occasions when he cannot atttend. And, of course, the Lodge committee has no executive powers of its own; it can only make recommendations for the Lodge to consider.

On the different subject of Provinces, not all are arranged alike. One of the Provinces in which I'm a member has no visiting officers at all, not does it permit discussion of potential honours in any Lodge committee - that's specifically down to the Lodge secretary (who has many friends (2) ). There are two main set periods after the Chair when this Province considers a bother for an honour. The honorific itself depend very much on the sectretary's report of the activities of the brother both in and out of the Lodge. The secretary may also put forward any brother for consideration by Province. As I say, this is just one Province's way of working; no two are identical. The organisation of a Province is almost entirely the domain of the PGM, acting under his patent from the Grand Master.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Nik ODwyer » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:54 pm

Hmmmmm, so as I am reading this, it is likely that in most cases, if (and this is only hypothetical), a member of the Lodge and the Secretary were not on the best of friendships that the report written by the secretary could be rather weak and as such the member not be shown in the light that he actually deserves.

Or, if the Secretary is busy with work and other commitments and that the report is very limited in detail, this could also restrict the Past Master from receiving Honours?

So with the freedom of information act and such like, I am assuming that all reports which are written and have been written are accessible?

Sorry to continue this thread and I am not meaning to take this into a negative direction, I am just interested in the contributing factors.

As always, many thanks for everyone's comments and opinions.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby JulesTheBit » Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:29 am

A PGM holds a patent to manage freemasonry in his Province and, within reason, can have any rank recommendation system he wants. In theory there could be dozens of different ones. In practice there is standardisation of a sort. There is usually a system for recognising talent at an early stage, and generally rewards for past efforts count for less than future potential.

As an example of differences, in London at one time the bro. being put forward for honours by his lodge was not supposed to know. In Essex he had to counter-sign the recommendation form to certify that it was complete and correct.

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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Trouillogan » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:48 pm

Nik ODwyer wrote:Hmmmmm, so as I am reading this, it is likely that in most cases, if (and this is only hypothetical), a member of the Lodge and the Secretary were not on the best of friendships that the report written by the secretary could be rather weak and as such the member not be shown in the light that he actually deserves.

Or, if the Secretary is busy with work and other commitments and that the report is very limited in detail, this could also restrict the Past Master from receiving Honours?

So with the freedom of information act and such like, I am assuming that all reports which are written and have been written are accessible?

Sorry to continue this thread and I am not meaning to take this into a negative direction, I am just interested in the contributing factors.

As always, many thanks for everyone's comments and opinions.

Quote from the Information Commissioner's Office:

"The Act covers any recorded information that is held by a public authority in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and by UK-wide public authorities based in Scotland. Information held by Scottish public authorities is covered by Scotland’s own Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002."
So, not being a public authority, our records are not accessible.

Quote from the apron charge in the 1°:
"In such cases it is expected that you will invite him to withdraw in order amicably to settle your differences, which being happily effected, you may then clothe yourselves, enter the Lodge and work with that love and harmony which should at all times characterise Freemasons. But if, unfortunately, your differences be of such a nature as not to be so easily adjusted, it were better that one or both of you retire than that the harmony of the Lodge should be disturbed by your presence."

Further, in the province to which I referred, the report by the secretary is a factual one only, to include relevant dates and tick-boxes (hate them!) for the labour undertaken. There is no space for a critique but there is for works in the community.

It happens to work in that province and means that everyone is on friendly terms, at least with the sectretary! Also, I would argue that a secretary who is not objective and impartial would soon find himself replaced.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby kingofthecut » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:31 pm

on the contrary, the Secretary gets a whole section to fill at his will

and I quote

9. Secretary / Worshipful Masters Report
The Master and Secretary are asked to Report on this Brother’s activities since leaving the Chair. Please give any information which reflects on his contribution to the Lodge and to the Province. Please state if this Brother has any personal difficulties which have prevented him from making a full contribution to the Lodge. All information contained within this report will remain strictly confidential
9(a) Secretary's Report

Signature of Secretary Date

9(b) Worshipful Master's Report

Signature of Master Date

10. Visiting Officer's Report

Signature of VO Date

11. APGM Comments

Signature of APGM Date

Recommended Rank
V.O’s Name ( Please Print )
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Nik ODwyer » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:28 pm

Dear Brothers,

thank you all for your varied and detailed input, I am curious if there is a member of the Forum from the Provence of Suffolk who would have experience of submitting members of their Lodge, as I have been through the Chair and have never been part of the recommending process, I would be happy for a reply on here or a Private Message.

Thanks
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Trouillogan » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:10 pm

kingofthecut wrote:on the contrary, the Secretary gets a whole section to fill at his will

Just goes to show how each Province has its own methods.
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Question about Provincial Honours

Postby jackal » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:17 pm

I am a member of 4 Provinces and 1 overseas District. I am a Past Prov G Secretary so for one Province I know the system inside out.

All of the Provinces and District I am involved with have a different system for looking at and appointing Honours/Promotions.

Only one of them invites comments on a worthy brother outside of the 6 year past the chair rule they use. Occasionally therefore a Lodge will receive 2 first appointments and a promotion all in the same year, but not often.

Nik, if you get the opportunity go into your Provincial Office and have a chat with your Provincial Secretary, I am sure he will be delighted to go through the system your Province use.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby wayne cowley » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:20 pm

Not Craft, but today learned that I have been appointed to Provincial Royal Ark Mariner Grand Rank

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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Saracen1970 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:54 pm

Congratulations Wayne (36)
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby wayne cowley » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:40 pm

On a roll - just had a letter appointing me as Provincial Assistant Grand Director of Ceremonies in the Mark degree

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