Question about Provincial Honours

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Question about Provincial Honours

Postby gcoudert » Mon May 12, 2014 9:37 pm

Just wondering. When you get Provincial Honours (first appointment), do you have to pay membership fees to your Provincial Grand Lodge in the same way as you pay subs for being a member of your Lodge(s)?
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Trouillogan » Mon May 12, 2014 9:44 pm

Yes, you pay a one time fee for the 'honour' - the amount probably depends on the province. And for the kit. And for going to dine at the AGM or Provincial Appointments meeting. So it adds up! Grand Lodge appointments cost even more. But there's no increase in your pay grade!

Congratulations and well done - I'm sure you have earned it.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby lew finnis » Mon May 12, 2014 10:09 pm

It's perhaps worth adding that if you get a promotion in the future, you have to pay another Fee of Honour - the further up you go, the bigger the fee.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby kingofthecut » Tue May 13, 2014 3:17 am

I'm getting my active rank today. It cost me £42 to accept and then £5 to join the provincial stewards lodge which is an annual fee and also the same for the Provincial Grand Officers Club. Then regalia, £100 plus, and getting to Great Queen Street from Birmingham which I managed to get for only £25 return on the train (does mean catching the 6.20am train though). I'm not dining as that would have put the cost well up. I am sure Holborn will have a perfectly acceptable sandwich shop or bar to get something to eat between the Chapter AGM in the morning and the Craft AGM and my investiture in the afternoon. I am sure at my initiation I was told that 'Masonry is free'!
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby admin » Tue May 13, 2014 8:38 am

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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Nik ODwyer » Tue May 13, 2014 5:06 pm

Sorry to ask a question on someone else's questions. But do active ranks cost more than past ranks?
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby gcoudert » Tue May 13, 2014 9:45 pm

Trouillogan wrote:Congratulations and well done - I'm sure you have earned it.


Thanks but I have another year to wait before it actually happens so I'd better start saving up!

Edit: "before I qualify"...
Last edited by gcoudert on Wed May 14, 2014 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby gcoudert » Tue May 13, 2014 9:48 pm

Nik ODwyer wrote:Sorry to ask a question on someone else's questions. But do active ranks cost more than past ranks?


No worries. This was going to be my next question!
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby lew finnis » Tue May 13, 2014 10:08 pm

The Fee of Honour is the same, but there is a cost - you have to go out on official visits during the year, so transport costs, meal costs etc. all add up
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Bernie » Tue May 13, 2014 11:16 pm

£25 in my province to accept a Provincial Honour, Or, at least, ProvGStwd, which I receive on Thursday. And, yes, I've already got the large list of meetings I'm expected to attend during the year; including the one where I am the official representative of the PGM.

Did someone mention 'free'?
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Peter Dowling » Wed May 14, 2014 12:02 am

How are prov ranks given. Who decides?
A officer told me that I need to do more to get prov honours. I have been out of chair 2 years now. Usually takes 6-8yearsin craft. I only did a 2nd in my year and have been told to volunteer to do a 1st and 3rd to complete my file? Is there a cv for me on what I have done which decides my rank.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby sc » Wed May 14, 2014 1:52 pm

We are going well OT here, but in my Province they like you to do a First, Second and Third, even if they are just demonstrations (e.g. due to lack of candidates). But even if you have not done so, if you are noteworthy in some positive way, you may get something, or you may not. Honours depend on a million and one things.

Even if you are the best WM in the world, did all three degrees 100% yourself, do masses and masses for your lodge, the province and charity in general, you may never get an honour or it may take forever - or you may get one tomorrow. There is a set limit to the number of Provincial Whatevers that can be appointed each year, and the Honours Committee has a heck of a job trying to fit everybody in.

My Province has it down to a science. Everything is computerised. Every year, the database generates a list of all those who are X years out of the Chair (or Y years after first appointment), various things are checked, points awarded for this that and the other, and then humans check, double-check, arrange, re-arrange and basically try to make sure that ranks are awarded as fairly as is humanly possible given the nature of the beast.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Peter Dowling » Thu May 15, 2014 1:05 am

But if the person who sends in that form (presume the sec) does not know all the things you have done ie mentoring co work or charity work that is not recorded. Is there not a committee that sits to fill the form for honours on a particular brother. What if the sec does not get on with a particular bro. Just asking, as seems unfair for one person to give info or decide.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby kingofthecut » Thu May 15, 2014 4:57 am

On our forms the Secretary, Master, VO and APGM all have a comments box to fill in. The secretary fills in such items as attendance and work done but the Master and VO get to write their own feelings in their own words. However, that is only for one or two candidates a year that are put forward. A friend of mine said he did have the worksheet of the criteria that are used in Middlesex but unfortunately he can't find it. From the forms I have filled in it seems that attendance and offices held seem to be important but am sure the recommendations of the VO must have a great bearing on certainly active offices. As for Past ranks I have no idea how they calculate those or even whether there is much difference between some of them. I personally think you should only be able to become a past something if you have actively held that office such as with ProvGStwd. You can only become a PProvGStwd if you have held active rank as Provincial Steward, in my Province anyway.

Here is the form I have to fill in as Secretary http://www.middlesexcentury.co.uk/promform.htm
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Nik ODwyer » Thu May 15, 2014 7:39 pm

kingofthecut wrote:On our forms the Secretary, Master, VO and APGM all have a comments box to fill in. The secretary fills in such items as attendance and work done but the Master and VO get to write their own feelings in their own words. However, that is only for one or two candidates a year that are put forward. A friend of mine said he did have the worksheet of the criteria that are used in Middlesex but unfortunately he can't find it. From the forms I have filled in it seems that attendance and offices held seem to be important but am sure the recommendations of the VO must have a great bearing on certainly active offices. As for Past ranks I have no idea how they calculate those or even whether there is much difference between some of them. I personally think you should only be able to become a past something if you have actively held that office such as with ProvGStwd. You can only become a PProvGStwd if you have held active rank as Provincial Steward, in my Province anyway.

Here is the form I have to fill in as Secretary http://www.middlesexcentury.co.uk/promform.htm


hmmm knowledge is power, I wasn't aware that a form with so much detail was needed, I am curious if other members have knowledge of these, and I assume for regularity that each province's is the same?

Bit of a mad one, but what with the Data protection act, I wonder if anyone has requested their form, or if that is even allowed?
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Bernie » Sat May 24, 2014 9:52 am

Every province has a similar form and the detail required is pretty much as stated. Although the Master's recommendation is important, it is the VO/GO recommendation which carries most weight. Ultimately, your conduct, attendance, offices and ritual throughout your Masonic career is noted and, after all official visits, a report submitted to province noting who did what and how well.

So, it's not the Master's year which gets him preferred, it's what he's done since joining.

With regards to Past Stewards, in Northants and Hunts you can be preferred to PPGStwd, but usually for specific reasons/services to the Province. During your first year you are treated as an Active officer, but following that your title is PPGSwd, as opposed to PProvGStwd, which is the usual way to designate someone who has previously held active rank. I believe the PPG and PProvG titles are fairly common designations, but prepared to be corrected on that one.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Trouillogan » Mon May 26, 2014 4:28 pm

Bernie, it just goes to show how the different provinces work things differently. In my province here, there are no VOs/VGOs or Group Reps. Lodge committees of recommendation are pretty rare here also. The burden rests entirely on us Lodge secretaries. We make an annual return showing Lodge and LoI attendances of the IPM and the ritual work he did while he was in office, along with other work, both within the confines of the Lodge and in the wider public community. Should the secretary feel that any other brethren deserve some recognition, then we will add our recommendations for province to consider. It's all a hidden mystery, the nature of which would hardly appear to be a science!
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby BigI » Mon May 26, 2014 5:02 pm

Again, there are big differences. In my London Lodge a Brother is only put forward following a vote from the PMs. As secretary i will circulate the CVs of those eligible and when a candidate emerges then i will submit the form to MetGl. The emphasis is not on what a brother has done but what he is likely to do in the future. His reward for the work he has done up to the chair is to occupy the chair. From then on he is judged by what he can bring to London Masonry in the future.
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby norwichman » Mon May 26, 2014 6:44 pm

I personally feel the entire honours system is a complete load of B*****ks, it only exists in its present form to bring money in to Grand Lodge/Prov Grand Lodge and means absolutely nothing.

In days gone by you actually had to work for an honour, these days if you pay loads of money in to the provincial Charity you will definately get a higher rank than if you dont! Thats why its b*****ks! If a brother works hard but has no spare money to give to the Provincial charity and doesnt get that pin that shouts out 'Look at me Ive donated x amount so I get a badge' he wont get as big a reward as someone who does, even though he may of worked his proverbials off for the Lodg and his community.

I am afraid The Honours system exists because of our egos! It is completely outof sync with what Freemasonry should be (IMHO of course) (5)
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Re: Question about Provincial Honours

Postby Trouillogan » Tue May 27, 2014 11:35 am

norwichman wrote:I personally feel the entire honours system is a complete load of B*****ks, it only exists in its present form to bring money in to Grand Lodge/Prov Grand Lodge and means absolutely nothing.

While in essence I agree, I wouldn't put it quite that strongly! However, consider the situation in one of our sister jurisdictions - Ireland.
If the Province or Grand Lodge feel that you have a skill that can be used for the greater benefit, you could be offered an active position. That will last for as many years as is appropriate for both. After that, the rank of that post becomes your past rank - and that's it. There are no appointments to or promotions within past ranks.

A most interesting paper on this very subject entitled 'Past Grand Rank' by the recently late Bro C John Mandleburg was delivered on his behalf in Quatuor Coronati Lodge and will appear in this year's volume of AQC. Although it was directed at past grand ranks, it applies equally to provincial past ranks and should be read by all so as to gain some understanding of how our 'system' (if it can be called that) flummoxes the rest of the Masonic world!
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